Why do you hate Samus' character and how would you improve?

[FacelessGriffin]

...

Okay, seriously now. If you have nothing against Samus, then this is not a topic for you. Please don't hijack this anymore.

So here's the drill:

I've noticed that many people don't like about Samus' characterization in the game. Which is fine really, you can have your own tastes, but unfortunately a lot of the complaints never moved beyond "She just sucks" as far as I see (which isn't very far, admitteadly).
I'm genuinely quite interested. I myself have not much problem with Samus' character, so that's why I don't really understand the negative reception.

What I ask now is why you didn't like Samus' character, how would you characterize her and why do you think it would work better?

As such, it's advised not to post snarky comments without any proper explanation or details, because this time I really like to know what you think.

Please let this stay on topic.

Samus looks pretty good with that green jacket.

I agree.

[Satch]

We answer the question of "Why" and people keep saying we're whining or we were imagining something that hasn't ever been there every time we respond.

By introducing PTSD, he introduced an inconsistency.

Sakamoto has never thought of Samus' personality before Other M, and he says so himself:

Depicting the story of Samus Aran in this game was one of the most important game design concepts from the very beginning because before Other M I did not think about what kind of person Samus Aran was and how she thinks and her personality.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/ar ... ?id=263225

It's just too late in the game to introduce character traits as drastic as those without shaking up the audience. 20 years too late.


How would I improve? Get rid of the heavy handed storytelling and just have her shut up. It's like my mama always says: "If you're not gonna do it right, don't do it at all."

[Xscapist]

How would I improve? Get rid of the heavy handed storytelling and just have her shut up. It's like my mama always says: "If you're not gonna do it right, don't do it at all."

I have to agree, in my opinion the game would've been instantly improved if all the story had been simply removed. And review scores probably would've been higher, since the majority of review bring up "cheesy" cutscenes as being one of the negative aspects of the game. Even if it only influenced them to drop the score a small fraction, they still dropped it a small fraction.

"If you're not gonna do it right don't do it at all" also sums up my feeling on women characters in stories (in movies, comics, games, etc.) in general. Sometimes I'd almost prefer a story to have no women at all, than a single woman injected into it in a way that makes me cringe. (I would've enjoyed Sergio Leone's Once Upon A Time In The West so much more if he hadn't been convinced by a buddy to write in a role for a woman.)

As far as explaining why I Samus gets on my nerves in this game? I've given up trying to explain it here, I'm exhausted from it. Like Satch says, every time one of us explains it, no matter how calmly, we're accused of whining, or imagining things, or overthinking things, or being impossible to please, etc. Oh, or of using unfair tactics like discussing sexism.

Honestly, I never should've typed the word "sexism" or "sexist" in any of my posts. If I explain examples of sexism without using that word, there's at least a small possibility someone who didn't previously understand will understand. It's not like I'm saying its misogynist, which is a hatred of women. Sexism (and racing) is something that often isn't done on purpose, that people might not even notice due to certain forms of it are common in one's culture. But the moment someone sees that word, it's like it riles some people up in a way where they don't want to try and understand someone else's perspective at all, they just become sharply focused on trying to prove something isn't sexist (or prove I'm the one being sexist by calling something sexist).

Let me just clarify that not all of my reasons for disliking the characterization in this game (of Samus, or characters in general) have to do with sexism. There are some things that get under my skin in this game that don't involve sexism at all. But, there are examples of sexism in this game, and it's a result of the sexism that's still pervasive in Japanese culture (not that our culture is devoid of it), which I explained in a certain other thread. Wishing really hard isn't going to make something suddenly not sexist.

But I promise this is the last time I will use that word on this forum.

[FacelessGriffin]

Oh, or of using unfair tactics like discussing sexism.

Honestly, I never should've typed the word "sexism" or "sexist" in any of my posts. If I explain examples of sexism without using that word, there's at least a small possibility someone who didn't previously understand will understand. It's not like I'm saying its misogynist, which is a hatred of women. Sexism (and racing) is something that often isn't done on purpose, that people might not even notice due to certain forms of it are common in one's culture. But the moment someone sees that word, it's like it riles some people up in a way where they don't want to try and understand someone else's perspective at all, they just become sharply focused on trying to prove something isn't sexist (or prove I'm the one being sexist by calling something sexist).

Let me just clarify that not all of my reasons for disliking the characterization in this game (of Samus, or characters in general) have to do with sexism. There are some things that get under my skin in this game that don't involve sexism at all. But, there are examples of sexism in this game, and it is a result of the sexism inherent in Japanese culture, which I explained in a certain other thread. Wishing really hard isn't going to make something suddenly not sexist.

But I promise this is the last time I will use that word on this forum.

Then would it be better if I now specifically ask for your arguement about game being sexist?
... Unless it's the same old, of course. I'm sorry, but I had already heard the Ridley scene and the weapon authorization a thousand times before, I don't think it needs repeating.

[Phazon Ridley]

First of all: I'm amazed that this is actually a new thread, considering that every other thread has degenerated into some form of debate over the validity/(un)satisfactoriness of Samus's depiction in Other M.

Second:

We answer the question of "Why" and people keep saying we're whining or we were imagining something that hasn't ever been there every time we respond.

By introducing PTSD, he introduced an inconsistency.

Sakamoto has never thought of Samus' personality before Other M, and he says so himself:

Depicting the story of Samus Aran in this game was one of the most important game design concepts from the very beginning because before Other M I did not think about what kind of person Samus Aran was and how she thinks and her personality.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/ar ... ?id=263225

It's just too late in the game to introduce character traits as drastic as those without shaking up the audience. 20 years too late.


How would I improve? Get rid of the heavy handed storytelling and just have her shut up. It's like my mama always says: "If you're not gonna do it right, don't do it at all."

^ THIS.

Third:

In the opening post, it's stated that sexism is not valid because it "completely contradicts the objective aspects (military protocol, PTSD)".
And then,

I now specifically ask for your arguement about game being sexist?

lolwut

In regards to the subject matter this thread wants to debate,

I don't think it needs repeating

There are a lot of other lengthy, detailed debates that have been held on this subject. If you weren't paying attention before--

this time I really like to know what you think

--then there's a pretty good collection of resources that can be referenced in order to find out what someone might say (read: has said) is wrong with the characterization, and why, and improvements, and anything else ad nauseam. Happy trails.

I am inclined to fully agree with the above post.

[Xscapist]

Then would it be better if I now specifically ask for your arguement about game being sexist?

Sigh, I'm not arguing that the whole entire game is sexist (breaking my promise already). But it contains elements where moments of sexism show through. It also contains a few moments of Samus being awesome...but not very many.

Some of the elements are more subtle than others, and I've lost interest in trying to explain the more subtle ones. Mostly the story is just bad writing, but occasionally a bit of sexism and stereotypical gender roles shows itself. Here's a single example out of the less subtle category (but possibly too subtle to keep anyone from attempting to argue "nuh-uh!"):

[spoiler]"Once our MB was in a human form, she excelled. As an interface between us and them, her skills with personal interaction humanized her to a great extent. Her confidence as unwavering, and her ability to learn was greater than we'd expected.

"But then... She developed emotions!"

The trigger that set all of the events of the game into motion is that this female AI managed to develop emotions. It's speculated in-game that it was brought about by her interactions with the Metroid, as if maternal instinct is so strong it can break programming and lead an AI to forming emotions. I could go on...[/spoiler]

[FacelessGriffin]

In the opening post, it's stated that sexism is not valid because it "completely contradicts the objective aspects (military protocol, PTSD)".
And then,

I now specifically ask for your arguement about game being sexist?

lolwut

In regards to the subject matter this thread wants to debate,

I don't think it needs repeating

There are a lot of other lengthy, detailed debates that have been held on this subject. If you weren't paying attention before--

this time I really like to know what you think

--then there's a pretty good collection of resources that can be referenced in order to find out what someone might say (read: has said) is wrong with the characterization, and why, and improvements, and anything else ad nauseam. Happy trails.

What I mean was I am curious to see whether or not the arguement is something I haven't heard before. I will edit that statement out, if that's what you wish.
Also, I think it's better if keep those said debates in a more contained thread rather all over the place.

Xscapist, I'm sorry if that sounded like a generalization to you. And I will not bother you about sexism if you don't want to talk about it.

[Steamlord]

Too many useless monologues, mostly. I think most of the cutscenes could have worked without any dialogue at all, and if some scenes absolutely had to have dialogue (some did, I will admit), there should at least have been less of it. Samus does not need to narrate what she's doing as she's doing it - it's a VIDEO game and we have eyes. She really doesn't need to be saying "The distress signal was called Baby's Cry because babies cry when they are in distress and this is a distress signal so it is like a baby's cry" (I'm paraphrasing, obviously). She got a distress signal at the beginning of Prime 1, but she didn't start yammering about it then, did she? And we still understood it just fine. I just feel that a lot more of the game should have been simply shown rather than told.

I also didn't like her reaction to Ridley. No, I don't have any justification for it, I just didn't. It's just really weird seeing Samus being portrayed as weak. Although for the record, I love how Ridley was portrayed in that scene. Very demonic and menacing.

[Zeruel21]

I would agree Samus over-explained things to the point that she stopped being helpful and was just trying to cover up bad storytelling. If she had commented on what she thought about things and refrained from telling us what we should have been realizing, it would have been much better. If she's busy explaining things like "thumbs up is a tradition...", we can't get her personality from the event. I didn't mind the amount of speech in some scenes, it was just that it felt like the topic was unnecessary.

I also think portraying Samus for the first time in what was clearly a depressed part of her life was a bad idea. We get to see her at her lowest rather than during the times where she was living the life of a bounty hunter on a supposedly impossible mission.

Well like I keep saying, Ridley should just become the main character from now on. All of the Metroid game elements, except that "Space Jump" would be replaced by flying, and you'd get to play as a fucking space dragon.

Samus' reaction is justified in-fiction, but it's presented so horribly that my initial love for it has grown into apathy due to what it has done to the community.

[Gamer-e]

Eh, I didn't have too much of a problem with her. One of my main gripes with the story is that there wasn't enough of it. Bad writing or not, if the game was gonna be that linear, we should've gotten much more characterization via flashbacks.

(but possibly too subtle to keep anyone from attempting to argue "nuh-uh!"):

You know, when you phrase it like that, one could assume that you're calling anybody with a differing opinion from your own an idiot for not seeing things from your perspective. Not saying that you are, but it's really easy to interpret this part of your message that way.

[spoiler]The trigger that set all of the events of the game into motion is that this female AI managed to develop emotions. It's speculated in-game that it was brought about by her interactions with the Metroid, as if maternal instinct is so strong it can break programming and lead an AI to forming emotions. I could go on...[/spoiler]

Please do. I'm still not convinced, though. I, if I'm not mistaken, specifically remember it being stated that this isn't the first time something like this has happened and it was never insinuated that it's only happened in that manner (Edit: Oh, and there was Adam's AI in Fusion), although I'm interested in hearing more.

While I am one of those who think that people making claims of sexism are reading way too much into things and think most of it has to do with Samus not being portrayed the way they expected/wanted, I honestly do like hearing why people feel the way they do and get kinda annoyed when they give a debatable example or two and then just stop while implying that there is, in fact, a lot more that they could've gotten into.

[boomerthom]

Either get James Cameron to write Samus' dialog, or make her more "Master Chief"(speaks occasionally, but is basically a silent protagonist).