I've posted a bit now on these forums, and I know that I said I wanted to go into why I think people have been dumb in saying all they have about this game. But let me tell you in what could be a pretty long ass post (which I would hope you can figure out that this'll also have a ton of spoilers), that they have it all wrong.
Sakamoto wasn't a bad writer. He actually put in some of the best commentary into this game, and in a way, given the hardware limitations that were in the system of choice, he made things out to be something that we should've all thought about...only we didn't, and because we didn't, we will have to pay for it later. Partially because some people are so closed minded that they can't see past their own prejudices and sheep-like following of someone else's opinion.
The first thing I want to address is that Other M isn't a perfect game. The difficulty isn't really there (didn't take long to beat it my first time through), and the game left me wanting much more than what was there. I would loved to see what else Team Ninja had in store or wanted to do with the game (and believe me, from what I saw out of the game, there had to have been more they, or Sakamoto, wanted to do but couldn't get around the limitations of the system to do so).
That being said, too many people focus on certain things to prove their point of how the story is awful, when in reality, what they point out actually proves the exact opposite.
For one thing, let's talk about the nicknames. Yeah, we're talking about Adam's "lady" and Anthony's "princess" stuff. Hell, let's go into "The Baby" if you really think we should. In normal talk, we could view someone calling another woman that as sexist, and in short, that's what they did. Even though the "Lady" name was explained as something that Samus liked in Fusion (hey, remember that game?), we were still seeing people left and right saying that she should never tolerate someone calling her "Lady", much less "princess", but we'll get into the latter in a second.
Let's instead talk about why this would be acceptable. For one, Adam was more or less her father figure. We've established that. However, many saw Adam as a bit of a douchebag. But we also forgot that he's a commanding officer. He's supposed to be that way in order to command respect. It's the military, and in order to get respect, you have to be the douchebag sometimes. But it's not because "hey, I'm an asshole because I can". No! Do you want to know what happens if you don't learn to follow your instructors in the military and never learn how to hold a gun or whatnot? Go on a front line with no knowledge of what the hell you're doing. Gonna have your head blown off in a second, are you? Now, you have the same training from someone who's too nice. Not going to learn much from someone who doesn't command your attention or gets tough with you. They get tough with you in order to get you ready for what you're going to face, and that CO's douchbaggery could just save your ass. What would you rather have? Someone yell at you, or you getting yourself shot? Yeah, I'd rather get the douchebag instead of the murderer.
It wasn't like Adam was being one, either. He was just tough and knew what he had to do. That's probably why Samus respected him and treated him like a father. Look in any training camp and you're going to see relationships between recruits and drill instructors that fall along those lines. Those DI's command respect and will rip you a new asshole, but they do that for a reason: because what they are getting you ready for is ten times worse. Trust me, if Samus had the same kind of training, then it's something she should be used to.
As for the two names. "Lady" did sound as she said it was in Fusion. He meant it out of respect, and that goes with Princess, as well.
Before we get to the name, let's talk about Anthony. I enjoyed this character. He was calm, cool, and collected. Oh, and by the way...HE'S AFRICAN AMERICAN, AND THE GAME DOESN'T TREAT HIM AS A STEREOTYPE! All the talk about the game being somehow sexist, and they never point or look at this guy and see that perhaps this character didn't fit the "typical black person" bill. In fact, he acts...like a normal human being. He's a bad ass, but not in the way you would expect.
Anyway, back to Princess. One thing that I've learned out of seeing military movies is that the recruits get nicknames. To anyone else, the names they get would be very offensive. However, to the recruits, they seem to wear the name with pride. Give you an example: Full Metal Jacket. The DI called the main character "Joker" because he was a smart ass the first day in the camp. Not the way to start off, huh? Well, it turns out that the DI ends up really liking how "Joker" conducts himself, and gives him a rank that I can't remember the name of right now, but it is the highest rank a new recruit can get from a DI. All of this while being called Joker. Oh, and he carries that name throughout the rest of the movie, even near the end of the movie.
How about another movie, and I'll use a different mindset: Remember The Titans. There's this clean cut jock that joins the team. The coach (played perfectly by Denzel Washington) immediately calls him "Sunshine". Perhaps this could be deemed a bit offensive (and by now you're hopefully seeing a pattern I'm trying to convey here), but get this: in one part of the movie when they are in the locker room, the person that got the name suddenly sings "My girl". The first line in it that they sing? "I've got sunshine/On a cloudy day". The rest sing along in perfect harmony. Not too shabby for someone who could be offended at that name?
This gives us the impression that this is a tightly knit group, and they can, one, handle a bit of ribbing on each other. But more importantly, the kinship between the two characters is so tight that you can believe that he's calling her that out of pure respect. The two have an excellent chemistry between them that I hope gets expanded upon, and it wouldn't be out of the ballpark for Samus to perhaps have a "pet name" for Anthony. Plus, it's not like he's constantly calling her that. He does call her Samus at times. But near the end, the name Princess is heard, and Samus immediately knows who it is and smiles, because only one person calls her that (and especially one she thought was dead). In a way, it becomes sort of sweet that they two have that kind of friendship, but it got way overlooked by "OMG, SEXIST!" being thrown around like paper.
Then comes the "Baby" thing. Oh god, why are we even having to talk about this when we've just gone over why she could be calling something that saved her damn life through what the other soldiers called her? Of course she's going to affectionately call it something (because it didn't really have a name before that). Why is this a big concern? Of course, you could make an argument that it gets overdone, but what else is she going to call it? Baby Metroid? Well, we already know WHAT it is: a Metroid. Kind of redundant. Or how about one long ass name that would take forever to get out of your mouth? Yeah, it would be stupid. No need to worry too much about that. "The Baby" is better than something that would be either redundant or way too long to understand.
Then, the Hell Run. Now we all know about the authorization system. No need for me to go and talk about it again when we've had a million or so people comment on it (and honestly, if you read what I said about Adam about, the authorizing thing should make some sense). But about this one spot. How in the hell did people complain so much about this but then praise Fusion? What does Fusion have to do with the Hell Run? Perhaps what the AI tells Samus when she finally mentions Adam to it. Can't remember the exact quote, but the AI asks "Did this "Adam" care for you? Would he sit in a safe Command Room and order you to die?" Guess what? This could actually be a sort of plot point that's getting examined here. The AI in Fusion is actually asking Samus about something that's actually occurred. Thing is, in Fusion, Samus responds: "He would understand that some must live and some must die... He knew what it meant. He made that sacrifice once." Meaning that, at least in her mind, she knew what his reasons were. What she thought about it is left in the air right now, but it's somewhat clear that this was meant to be something that would be explored upon later, and is something we SHOULD be questioning as part of the canon of her character. And, if you notice in Other M, he...DID sit in a safe Command Room and somewhat do just that. Which is what the AI is obviously bringing up in Fusion. Indirectly putting in the continuity in such a way that it makes you wonder.
But hoo boy, now we get to the meat and potatoes of the whole thing: the Ridley scene. Yeah, I have a ton of issues about how people reacted to this whole thing. Maybe because not many know how to discuss what is presented here.
For one, many didn't exactly know a manga existed, but perhaps this scene would make us want to read it. And why would we not want for them to have us want to read it? Hell, subliminal advertising for the win.
Anyway, this scene caused more than a few heads to roll. But in reality, this (along with Sector Zero) is the catalyst for me being irritated at the fan dumb presented to this game. I can understand how people think that it was out of nowhere (and if you notice that the devs were obviously struggling to keep with space constraints on this game, you could see why it felt a bit rushed and somewhat out of place), but c'mon, we can't be THAT unwilling to do some research into what she was experiencing, and why it's something that can't be explained in a simple way.
For one to understand that reaction, one must understand what post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is, what are the signs of it, when and where and how one does experience it, and why. I looked around, and from what I've seen, PTSD doesn't have any one set mechanic that you can expect people who have it to show at any one time. All have a central theme (a sudden anxiety spike when faced with a reminder of a tragic event), but what that anxiety will make the victim do can vary, and it didn't show that it had to be the exact same thing all the time. It can be a sudden urge to run around all over the place one time, then just an emotional breakdown the next. Then the act of trying to avoid things that remind you of the event. Doesn't have to be the same thing all the time.
With that known, how do we know that Samus DIDN'T experience PTSD at any of the points that she fought Ridley? Hell, perhaps in Zero Mission, her sudden anger spike in that scene could have been just that (the wanting to rip him a new asshole because of what he did to her). But she could've had a different reaction in Super Metroid, where she just can't beat him on the Space Colony, when she beat him before. Why couldn't she? She killed him once? If we're going to ask why she didn't have the exact same reaction the last few times and why she's having a still seizure now when she has killed him before, we should be consistent.
And really, if the manga reason the reason we're going with, then...how in the hell are you thinking that she's ever going to get over something as tragic as seeing both parents die, while she's a child, in front of her with their murderer doing the deed while she's watching, and then he's eyeing her next? Her parents were killed, the asshole is staring her down, and she would be scared out of her mind. Please tell me that anyone with a soul would have some reaction if it were them. It's something you don't just get over right away, if ever. That's the kind of stuff people commit suicide over. So, regardless of how many times she's faced him, I'm going to assume that she's going to have some anxiety over having to face him again.
Especially when you consider the other stuff she's been through since then. She's blown up a planet, twice, having jellyfish try to eat her brains, faced a huge monster with a giant brain for a head, had the one Metroid that saved her life be killed by said monster (and add THAT to the list of her suddenly getting a spike...she starts glowing and proceed to do exactly what she would want to do to Ridley on Mother Brain 2...she saw "The Baby" getting killed right in front of her...poor Samus must have the luck, huh?), among other things.
I'm going to go into Sector Zero while discussing PTSD, too, since this falls into the general category. Adam shoots her in the back, yada yada yada! Did I mention that Samus sees Adam as a father figure? Did he decide to sacrifice himself...WHILE SHE WATCHES HELPLESSLY AS HE DOES SO? She knew he was saving her life and making sure she could do what she needed to do, but she was watching a person that was part of her life die. I would be emotional, as well.
But PTSD plays a roll in this, too. She's already lost her biological parents, and now it's like she's watching her father die AGAIN! I don't give a crap HOW tough you are, something like that is not going to sit well with someone. The thought of losing Anthony, as well, got her in a bit of a twist emotionally, as you probably caught, as well.
All of this actually goes into one central theme that people tend to use a lot: the characterization of Samus was not what they expected, and they made her out to be weak. But, look at what she goes through, and then look at what she overcomes. She overcomes even her OWN EMOTIONS, and kicks Ridley's ass despite her being utterly scared to death of him (she turns on the bitch switch when she sees him almost off Anthony), she still downs all the bosses, she still finds out the truth about the Bottle Ship. Good lord, that actually takes some bollocks to do. That's not being weak. That's being as strong as ever without being cliche.
You see, the game presents Samus as a type of character that if we didn't get that and we got her as an unshakable person we would be complaining that she would not be: three dimensional. We have a tough woman who knows her way around places, has seen it all, has faced numerous challenges, and has still been able to keep her human side in check, for the most part. She still cares about important people in her life, she still has things that scare her to death, she still has personal demons that she can't seem to shake off, and she still does things that some might find questionable. But through it all, she finds it within herself to perform her missions well. That's the mark of real strength. Not "I don't give a crap about anyone or anything". It's strength that is drawn from having something to fight for, past experiences, and fears. Why would we want someone that is so one dimensional that they become unbelievable? Samus has actually become the perfect character for a game like this.
In short, Sakamoto is brilliant because he makes us have to examine the very nature of why someone like Other M's Samus IS strong.He's wanting us to examine how PTSD is and how it works, and why she experiences it a lot. We're forced to examine the very environment of a controlled military group and operation, and to understand why things happen the way they do, and why people get the orders they do. Finally, he destroyed the very way we thought of Samus, which is not a bad thing since the way we thought of her was incredibly BORING! Instead, we get the very interpretation of strength and what makes it in her characterization.
And did we do any of the above? Nope! We bitched! We also failed, miserably!
Will we ever learn? Only time will tell!
Last edited by darkpower on 09.13.12 5:53pm, edited 1 time in total.
Prepare to be lambasted by nearly everyone who's still stuck in 2010.
And now for a few thoughts:
A. I think maybe 1% of the population of the planet would find the nickname/callsign "Joker" to be unpleasant. In fact, most people would probably fight for that callsign.
2. New theory incoming, "princess" was a nickname and "Lady" was the callsign Adam assigned Samus, but Samus missed the memo. She was probably too busy internal monologuing about Anthony calling her princess to hear Adam explain it to her.
C. Sakamoto might be a decent writer, but Other M is not evident of that. It's a blatant rehash of Fusion and is full of ill-planned feints that lead absolutely nowhere, often leaving the player confused as to what is going on. The Deleter subplot is proof enough. There's also the whole problem in which the story got in the way of the gameplay and robbed us of a good ending. Instead, we got a Queen Metroid boss followed by a "Pixel Hunt" final boss that required zero actual skill. And they spent so much time trying to tie up the other games' loose ends, that they forgot to tie up Other M's loose ends. The writing as a whole is just...B+ at best. At best.
The word you are looking for is not "offensive," but "derogatory."
1 a : making attack : aggressive
b : of, relating to, or designed for attack <offensive weapons>
c : of or relating to an attempt to score in a game or contest; also : of or relating to a team in possession of the ball or puck
2: giving painful or unpleasant sensations : nauseous, obnoxious <an offensive odor>
3: causing displeasure or resentment <offensive remarks>
1: detracting from the character or standing of something —often used with to, towards, or of
2: expressive of a low opinion : disparaging <derogatory remarks>
Both Adam's and Anthony's nicknames for Samus were not meant to offensive or derogatory. They were meant to be contrary. She was a tomboy and it showed, so they were using nicknames that represented types of people that were the exact opposite of her demeanor. Such contrary nicknames, as evidenced by Samus in both Other M and Fusion, are both disliked and coveted by the people who own them. This is because the people who give the names to them are usually only regarded as sentimentally close to the named. The kind of people who aren't being derogatory for the sake of insult, but teasing out of friendship or love. They could have driven this point home had they had an evil-aligned character call Samus princess or Lady, and had her wince or get angry about it. Just another missed opportunity. Though, they were still used as an overt "I'm still a good guy!!" codeword for Samus and the player.
E. Now, applying the nicknaming examples that you provided, the two should have given Samus derogatory nicknames in vein of her demeanor/actions. Survivor, Badass, Loner, Hunter, Bird-Girl, Bird-Lady, Bird-Princess, Chozo-Girl, etc. But as it stands, your examples were bad, and you should feel bad. You clearly missed the point about why Adam and Anthony called Samus what they did. It was because they liked her, not because they were arbitrarily mocking/taunting her.
6. The Baby was The Baby since Super Metroid, according Sakamoto. Translations just got in the way. And the whole sexism thing as blag-blag-glab-glab-bargle-largle... Babies- and maternity as whole- was a huge theme throughout the game, so part of the "She's a woman with woman feelings!!!111!!!, but Samus can't be woman with feelings!!!!1!!" bit comes from that. Someone's biological click was ticking loudly throughout the entire game.
G. Don't really care enough about the rest of your stuff, because. Just because. Congratulations on essentially reiterating virtually everything that has been posted by about 85% of Metroid-fan Internet Posters back in 2010 and 2011, though. But you did hit a few new notes that I took issue with up above.
And if you think about it, Other M is probably the best maternity-themed game most people will ever play.
And Super Metroid is about giving up your child for adoption and immediately having second thoughts about it.
And Fusion is about surrogacy. (Letting other people grow your babies.)
The Metroid series just got a little more deep for me...
It doesn't help that I have a sheep-like following of my own opinions, and a wolf-like sharing of them. Haooooooooooooo!
X-Ray Scope Acquired!
I'm actually confused by your post, Zero. Are you saying that you agree with some of what I said? Were you thinking that I was directing all of it to a certain person? Are you saying that I didn't explain well? I'm confused by what you mean by "people in 2010" because I'm not sure where you're exactly standing. Don't know if you're talking about ME needing to come to 2010, or for others that are stuck in that time frame being unable to grasp what I said.
I could picked better examples, though, given what you said on that matter. Those were a few of what I thought of at the time, so I went with those. If you remember in FMJ when the guy first got the nickname, he got punched in the stomach, too. Not something you want to have happen to you. I don't "feel bad" (nor should I) about picking them because I think I still got my point across.
The point I'm trying to make is that people were asking the right questions, but for all the wrong reasons, and they usually didn't have the right answers, or forgot that Fusion comes after Other M in Metroid's timeline, thus some answers are given there. Otherwise, they could be expanded upon in future games.
And people cite things that they think prove that Samus was characterized as weak when they are actually a sign that she's human and has something to fight for. If she wasn't human or didn't react the way she did, we would've complained that the character was as stiff as cardboard, and so one dimensional that she becomes unbelievable.
In other words, if they did one thing with Samus, we would've heard complaints about wanting the other thing. They would never be able to win. We failed miserably to grasp the issues that the game was trying to get to because we were too busy bitching about things.
He was saying after the bits he choose to comment on that the rest has all been stuff argued to death since 2010.
Don't worry about the Post being long that just shows thought and time was put into it which shows dedication, which lets be honest anyone who is on this forum probably does not mind reading as long it adds new stuff. The first thing I take issue with is the simple fact that you label people as 'dumb' for not 'getting Other M'. Is it not possible that we all get it and we just have different interpritations of what is actually happening?
Personally, I think that if the different opinions are so diverse and quite a few people simply do not think he achieved what he set out do, then the writing is bad for the simple fact that it fails to communicate clearly with the audiance what is actually intended. Other M is not clear. Ideas and sparks of creative do not a good writer make. A good writer is defined by how clearly and simply they can communicate their intended message so that all who read or watch their work can understand at all points what is going on. Example: The Dark Knight can be reviewed as a Super Hero movie and it holds up. It is however also possibly to deeply analyse all the characters. That is simply because it is clear and presented to us in a way we can follow. Sakamoto's idea and goal behind what he wanted to with Other M was admirable but quite simply the way he executed his intended idea was not clear - he failed at communicating well.
I also do not think the system of choice had anything to do with why we did not expect what we got in the game. The reason we didn't think about it is because there are something people just don't do in videogames - taking all the agency away from the protagonist is one of them. It has nothing to do with the system, but all to do with the story he is trying to tell. He could tell exactly the same story on any console. In exactly the same way.
In fact, he just isn't a good writer. The dialogue IS horrible. And that is just in terms of how it is objectively written.
Sakamoto decided he only wanted to use the Wiimote, it is not the game system limitations that make the controls limiting. It is Sakamoto's idea that to experiance Metroid you need what basically amounts to an NES Controller. He deliberately decided not to use half of the hardware he had available.
The reason people talk about Fusion and the authorisation system when looking at the hell run is because essentially, the exact same thing happened in Fusion but the majority believed it handled it better. It gave a reason for the lack of equipment that didn't end up making Samus look like an idiot. Case in point: the Grapple Beam. The Grapple Beam is only obtained after yuou look up at a Grapple Hock while saving Anthony. In oprder to know you need to do that, you need to know that you even have a Grapple Beam and considering it is yet to be authorised, why would you even try to use it if you did know? Adam has not said so. Instead of uysing your judgment and activating it anyway, Adam has to tell you. Which in turn makes Samus feel really dumb for waiting around for an order when she might not get. In fact, how does Adam even know you all the stuff you do. Added to that, in Fusion you actually had to go looking for the power-ups, you had to find them on your own. It makes Samus seem smarter and most importantly allows the player to explore - which is one of the things that makes Metroid Metroid. This game lacks that. Fusion presented the obtaining of weapons in a way which did not strip away the core defining aspect of the Series.
In fact, why should Samus respect someone how let her run through a super-heated? Was it a test? Why? She had complied with every order he had so far given. In fact, she was following his commands even before he said she had to. 'I will not use missles and bombs'. So, why do it? It makes Adam come off as a bit of an arse which as you said goes back to Fusion and AI Adam basically saying as much, in which case, why should we respect Adam? He is not presented to us in Other M as the man that would be able to make AI Adam change his mind? Beyond that, he shot her in the back for no reason. He DID NOT have to do it. So, why did he?
So in order to understand what is going on with Ridley we are required to read an obsecure eight year-old manga that is not even translated? What? THAT IS NOT HOW YOU DO STORY-TELLING! The simple fact is, she has never reacted like that in Previous games. But perhaps most of all, what Ridley did to her specifically is never actually touched upon in the game itself. Nor is the fact she has PTSD made clear and what that means to her. You would think that with all the thinking she did she would question that. But no, it is all focused on Adam, completely forgetting the Chozo. And most importantly, Samus may see Adam as a father figure but nothing in the actual game backs up her depiction of him. We do not get an understanding of why Adam? Why not anyone else? That is not explained either. Again, we should not have to read outside material to know what is going on and why it is the writer's job to put everything we need to know in the text itself. Sakamoto did not do that.
Well that is just it isn't it? We don't know either way it is speculation. In short, we can't use it as evidance...in which case, why is she freaking out now? Because the game says 'her shots were fired wildly in that fight' if you load it back up after that, in short the gameplay does not even match up with the story and considering people have been able to make that the case for quite awhile now, why didn't it? It isn't like they had to worry about things being done out of order.
I would be more concerned with why someone I trusted shot me in the back when there was no call for him doing so. There was no reason Adam NEEDED to die.
But she doesn't. Her fight is canonically 'shooting wildly' and Ridley survives and after that she never gets the chance to finish him off.
There is not really much truth to be found out when actually every other character in the game knows it. She even fails to save MB and MB. That is all Anthony's job. She does not even fire when you press the 'A' button. She doesn't do anything that would actually make her strong - apart from perhaps accept Adam's choice and it isn't like he is giving her much of one.
Which would be fine, but he simply does not provide the tools for which to do that. He could have done had he actually developed every single character more. But he didn't. We were not given the tools to understand what he was telling us.
Now, I would disagree, I actually think the Samus we thought we know was a far more interesting character.
Most people are still arguing about it, which, to me, would say that it hit a mark with people enough to still warrant discussion.
I should've worded that better. I didn't mean people that had legit issues about the story. If you do, that's fine as long as they seem to have been thought through and not just because you wanted to hate the game from the moment it was revealed, or because you have a prejudice about the developers, or because you felt like trolling today. Those are the people I'd say that comment was directed to, but I wasn't clear in saying that.
Well, for one, I don't think everyone was going to be happy regardless of what he tried to do. We live in an internet and gaming society where we have some (not all, but enough that you can notice it) people so immature that we can't get away from constant trolling of forums and that. So you have a game that will deviate from the norm that people are used to, and you'll have the normal troll brigade taking advantage of people who have legit issue with the story, then, as you saw, the legit people unfairly get lumped in with the trolls and the ignoramuses. It's a culture that we wish would go away, but unfortunately, too many people nourish and feed it anymore that it's nearly impossible to stop it.
I do agree that the story could've been fleshed out better, but at the same time, along with tech issues, we have to remember that, to go along with asking if we were ever going to be happy with anything they did, this was their first time ever doing something like that, so they are going to show inexperience. I'm sure Kojima wasn't the best in the world the first time he made a game. He's considered a genius now, of course, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Not trying to make excuses or say that the story was in any way bad (I liked the story and thought it made us ask the right questions) or that they should scrap the idea that they could tell an intricate, cinematic story with audible dialogue for Samus in a Metroid game, but I do think they could've done more with a few things.
Like I say to a lot of people I debate the story with, if you thought you were complaining about the Ridley scene NOW, you wouldn't have wanted me at the helm. I would've made it into a sort of mind rape scene where you would see the actual village or whatever that got leveled, with Samus actually seeing her parents being murdered by his hand. I would've really gave people something to talk about (and given the game a dreaded M rating, but whatever).
Like I said before, you can tell there was a lot of compression to the video in the game. Pay attention to how the FMV's look at times. To people that render videos a lot (like me), the more you compress and convert, the more quality you're going to lose, and the more you're going to see things like what I saw. I don't know how anyone else didn't see it because I could clearly see it. Maybe that's because I'm someone who posts videos on YouTube sometimes. It's a fact that compression leads to quality loss, so you need to be careful in how you do things so you can still get the quality you desire and not have the final video be, say, 200GBs (and I'm not exaggerating on that: AVIs take up a LOT of disc space. I was very surprised when I was trying to render a video for the World of Warcraft Mists of Pandaria beta and found out that just a change in format also took off that much GB off of an hour long video, 720p video...and after that I had so much more respect for what people like Jessie Cox, James Rolfe, and TotalBiscuit go through to get their videos up for their fans). Space is devs greatest enemy, and I think people downplay that when talking about this game because that would be the grand issue there that could give certain people a pass. It makes the story not being as fleshed out as desired become forgivable, and sadly, there are some people who wanted to hate this game from the get go and need a reason to do so.
Because he thought that would've been a better choice to invoke some nostalgia and also a sense of better control. That design choice was, to me, a better choice. The only issue I had was that you didn't have the option to use the classic controller, but I can see why using such would be an issue when you try to fire a missile. The way the game played, I thought the control design choice actually made sense. Why did he HAVE to use the nunchuck to get the pass? I'm not seeing where incorporation of that is required. And in what way would it be implemented in such a manner that it would make sense for how the game controlled? It worked fine for a first person game like Prime 3, but in an over the shoulder style game? Fail to see where that made sense.
And yeah, I know you're just saying one out of many things you probably mean. I'm just focusing on that since that was the example you used.
First off, the second you look up at that Grapple Beam, Adam DOES authorize it. What's going on is a point of game programming in that the game is waiting for the speech file to finish, then either the game calls up the menu screen to show you the thing being able to be used and/or some dialogue telling you how to use it. I believe that as soon as you see the grapple hook at that point in the game, it'll actually let you use it without you having to hear the entire line.
As for losing the powers to begin with, how would you explain, then, what would happen to her that makes her lose the powers to begin with? If you are going to have it so she has to find them again, then you would need to have something happen to her that causes her to lose them that makes sense. The game actually starts in the Bottle Ship, so it's not like there's anything in there that's major that would cause her to lose those powers, and if there was, with all the others being in there, would that mean that everyone else would know something happened? If there could be a pre-event that occurred before she went there, then what would that be, and how would it fit in? These are the questions that developers who are making the story will have to ask themselves when figuring out how to explain off something as drastic as not being able to access powers that, if you had them from the start, it would only take you an few minutes to complete the game.
If you notice, that's basically what the AI in Fusion is actually asking, so that is actually working as intended. You're SUPPOSED to be asking that because the games themselves ask that very question. Thing is, you're asking it as it pertains to continuity of the story, and not as an in-universe question of how loyal was she to him and was she somewhat TOO loyal, which I think was the main issue we had here of asking the right questions for the wrong reasons.
I think here we're having a difference of ideals here. Why should we want to read that manga? Maybe because we're Metroid fans, and calling out attention to a key plot point in something that we could've not known came out (because it didn't get much publicity for reasons I can't fathom) will make us think "hey, maybe we SHOULD read it...it could be good", then that thing gets more sales and whatnot. It's somewhat subliminal advertising, when you think of it, along with everything else. And it's something that I'm fine with. Maybe they thought it would get demand up for it to get translated (and...WHY THE HELL HASN'T IT BEEN YET? Get to it, someone). Again, I'm fine with that because it was obscure, as you've said, and maybe we might WANT to read if it we knew it existed.
It's sort of like World of Warcraft. Do you know how many books have been written in which the game itself has a sort of assumption that you've read some of the stuff in there when you go to read quest text or understand why an NPC is doing something or what's the lore being a particular raid? There have been numerous books written for the universe, and as one guildie has said, some of them are damn good, but most don't know they exist because Blizzard doesn't do the best job telling you that they are out there, and they actually do some advertising that one came out, but you don't hear much about them.
Oh, and you don't want to know HOW much whining and crying people do about the numerous things that go on in WoW. Trust me, it'll make you want to find the closest knife if you did.
But back to the manga, why would it be a bad thing for us to want to read the thing? Not saying I'm stepping back from me saying that space issues played a part here (stand by that), but perhaps knowledge is what is needed to make us ask Nintendo (or whoever would be responsible for translation) to get that going so we can have another part of the Metroid storyline for us to enjoy in the states.
Your question can be asked in-universe, too. Did she have enough in her to hide her issues, but something else caused her guard to be down when confronted with her fear? Why are they only seeing this now? Why didn't she say anything before? How did she suppress such emotions?
This is what I didn't get about the complaints, and this is where I don't think we understood the nature of how people do midquals (made up a word there). For one, you intentionally leave plot holes in one game when you know another game that happens later in the canon's timeline will either expand upon it or will answer said questions that Other M raised. Fusion did expand on the "Hell Run" scenario by having the AI bring it up. Like I said, the Hell Run worked as intended. You asked the question of why Samus continued to be loyal during all of that...and the AI asked the EXACT SAME QUESTION, just with different wording and being more of a smart ass about it.
Then you leave things unresolved or unanswered so you can get people wanting another game that can answer the questions you have. Serial dramas do this all the time because they want you to "tune in next week".
Going to bring up WoW again as an example because it's a perfect case of a scene making you go "WTF". The end of the Dragon Soul raid, you have these four immortal dragon aspects that help you defeat Deathwing, who brought up a huge cataclysm, changing the entire makeup of Azeroth. These four are not only very powerful, but they have lived for thousands of years. When you finally down DW, a cinematic plays in which the aspects...LOSE THEIR IMMORTALITY, claiming that they have fulfilled their purpose, and that the "age of mortals has begun" (also giving a VERY obvious clue that Thrall's girl, Aggra, is pregnant). It made us go...WHAT THE HELL?
But you know what it also does? We know a new expansion is coming out (Mists of Pandaria), and we know that the Warcraft lore is never done, so it has made us want MoP to come out so we can find out what happens from there. That's a sign of good storytelling, even if it doesn't seem like it is. It makes you go "wait, what?", and then makes you want them to answer the questions with a further installment.
I think what the problem is for us is that Metroid was never thought of to be a game in which things like plot twists and plot holes that were intentionally there were done. We were so used to the self contained plots with little bits of Star Trek like tidbits about character profiles in there so we know a bit about a character's personal story, but noting as deep or as thought provoking. I think Fusion was the first game to actually have an ongoing story, the Zero Mission retold the first game and added more back story to it. That should've been key that Metroid was going in that direction in which there was an ever engrossing story.
Then the Prime series started. There was little in terms of telling the story through words. We had to scan to know the back story (a pain in the ass, but still), and there was no dialogue whatsoever from Samus even though most of the other games that came before gave her some. But the games were extremely well done. So much so that it began dominating the Metroid scene in such a way that we forgot a few things about how the Metroid series was headed (and who can blame us? Prime 3 continues to be one of the best Wii games out there along with Other M).
Meanwhile, other games were beginning to experiment with intricate stories that made people think. GTA4 had a VERY deep story for a game with the title of Grand Theft Auto. We had games like Uncharted and Final Fantasy that continued to make demand for more games that had cinematic storytelling and believable characters. Production qualities for games became sort of like you playing a movie than a game. How a story held a game together became more important than ever. That was cemented when Metal Gear Solid 4 came out and showed all of us how it was done. Good lord, I think I never was as much into a story before that as I was with that game. Every loose end was tired up perfectly, and the story, for as much as we watched and probably got lost in the dialogue, made us want more.
So when Metroid joined the fray and we got something that continued on the original path that the Metroid games were going on before Prime, it caught all of us by surprise because we were not used to that. Metroid was thought of as a game that didn't need to go down the path of cinematic storytelling and a plot line that left holes in there for us to think of theories for. It was a lot to take in after the Prime series made us not think that Metroid was going down the path of such.
Then we add on that Team Ninja was developing it, and we know what kind of reputation issues they were having at the time. People not only disliked their volleyball games, but they also had an issue with the attitude of their former spearhead, Tomonobu Itagaki. Yeah, he was kind of a dipshit when it came to talking about the game industry. He was a 360 fanboy through and through, you could tell. The Ninja Gaiden Sigma series did not have his input because he only wanted to work on the XBox. When he left, the shackles came off. Almost immediately, we heard rumors (don't remember if they were proven or not) that DOA5 was going to be made for the PS3. We do know that Itagaki would've never wanted to give Nintendo the time of day, either, but his departure meant they were free to pursue other avenues. But people still held a deep seeded hatred for TN because of their past, and unfortunately, the prejudiced of those people seeded into wanting to hate this game for the pure fact that it was made by TN.
But yeah, there were plot holes, I do give you that, but I think people like me are more tolerable of them because we know what the developers are trying to do, and how they are doing it. We're more inclined to let hem be able to give us plot points that another game can answer (which would only make sense FOR the future of that universe to answer), and for us to ask questions that devs can answer by giving us a new game that can answer them. Too many games have done this successfully, and Metroid is another franchise that can do this successfully if we let them (hell, would we have gotten a VERY well done MGS3 and 4 if we were THAT dumb about the Patriots story line in MGS2?). Thing is, we didn't expect such, and we had it too in our heads that the Prime series was the way EVERY Metroid game before it was and every one after that had to be like.
And us speculating...is not really a BAD thing when you consider games like MGS and WoW make their fans do that all the time and intend it to work that way.
I think others have explained why this was before I mentioned this. This was because he didn't want Samus sacrificing herself (as she wanted to do), and he knew she was the only one that could beat what was coming up. Plus, he's the CO. You question why he let her do the Hell Run, but letting her sacrifice herself is perfectly fine? Don't understand how it's okay for her to do something that DEFINITELY will kill her but she can't do something that might eventually kill her if she stays there for too long.
How does she "shoot wildly"? In the Ridley fight in Other M, she actually nearly kills him, and when she encounters him again, he's in pretty bad shape.
The one MB dying is one NO ONE could've seen coming. How could anyone defend against something like that.
As for the A button, think of yourself as the tank in that. Until you know what you're actually supposed to do, you're killing mobs left and right so your support can do their thing. Nothing new, and it actually presents another form of strength: trust in your allies. Sometimes, it's okay to admit that you do need help, and it's okay to accept it. He's SUPPOSED to be her partner, after all.
He actually kind of did. We just had a weird reaction to it because, as I've said, it's something new to us that other games have had for a while now. Not saying that we can be blamed for that since the Prime games were well done, but it did give us a thought of how Metroid games were supposed to be. The Prime games were actually the exception and not the rule because of the games before those that made a turn into a more cinematic experience.
In fact, going back to your point about the manga, perhaps that why we never heard of it. They probably were going to translate it before Prime's popularity changed how they thought we wanted Metroid to be. Dunno, just a thought of what they believed.
Which is actually something that, if we got, we would complain still because it would be one dimensional, as I've said before. I'd rather have a main character that is believable, can overcome obstetrical, is someone that I can relate to, and that I care about. The Samus "we" want (which is one that was given purely from our thoughts and was one that the original devs never really said she was) would be a good thing from a game play perspective since there would be more attention to the game play (of course), but that's not what the industry calls for anymore, and that's not what the Metroid series needs. It needs to have both great game play that is non-linear (OM was, but so was Fusion) while telling a deep story that makes up ask questions and makes us want to do things like write fanfics and demand another game, book, whatever.
In short, the game's story worked as intended, even if some people didn't exactly think it was.
It probably still does warrant discussion. However I think he was also suggesting that people have been talking about the same stuff for awhile - it has got to the point where everyone has made their choice and people are unlikely to change their mind. In short, the only stuff that actually needs discussing is new stuff that has not yet been broached in conversation before.
Well no, not everyone would be but it could have been far less polarising than it actually was.
Yeah but even far back as early MGS Kojima had a skill. A skill to make even the most absurd work...mainly because most things went somewhere. His earliest work, if you ask me shows more skill and craft than Sakamoto's own. I am of course talking about his work with story. Perhaps it is just because I have just played Fusion for the first time, but Sakamoto still seems like he has not improved since 2002. And again, the dialogue is just horrible.
I WOULD HAVE LOVED THAT!
The game was given a 16. I honestly think considering what they were going to cover they should have tried to push for the M. They really needed the clarification of Ridley. People would probably still be complaining, but enopugh would have been given for the majority to understand why Samus was freaking out and that is where the problem comes in. Most people don't know.
At least that would have made us understand. We might not agree. But we would understamd. Thus, the game would have actually achieve what it intended because we would all understand what was going on.
I don't think that. I think limitation of space does not excuse the story you are telling simply not being written well. If you don't have the space then you have to tell the story as quickly and effectively as possible, in ways that don't take up too much space. This is something the older Metroid titles understood - they told most things through visual storytelling. And Other M didn't do this because to tell the story it wants to tell requires information that isn't there. Information that could have been there if Samus did not talk anywhere near as much as she did.
He didn't. The problem is the use of only a d-pad makes controlling Samus somewhat difficult at times. Because Other M is in 3D you can move in eight directions, something you could do far more easily if you were using a control stick. In fact, I am still miffed why missles were controlled as they were. considering I am pretty sure the B button wasn't used.
It seems really odd that he would choose such a control to me. Why only use half the stuff at your disposal?
But that's the thing. Why would you consider looking at it? Why would you assume that Adam would authorise it? Its like the Metroid Queen and the Power Bomb but not anywhere near as bad.
I would explain it simply by having the Hyper Beam completely ruin her suit - by having her open the door with that and not realise it - the first part of the game would then play as Samus in her Zero Suit, while someone on the team, deals with fixing the suit over the course of the game. This allows you to do the hell run, make yourself a burrden to everyone there and actually give you a reason to get on their goodside and prove yourself. Perhaps new beams could be downloaded at Nav Stations?
In fact, I probably wouldn't even set the game on the ship. I would set it on a planet that the chozo went to at sometime.
At the very least, I would make the Bottle Ship not as circular.
Maybe you could keep the same thing but actually talk to Adam about what stuff you think you'll need?
I don't know. I have to question, why they even need an excuse for her to find powerups. The Diffusion Beam came out of nowhere. You absorb the power of your enemy into your suit, least thats what I thought you did. So, why not gain the items by absorbing Boss remains of different elements to add to her suit. Prime did that.
Each good story tells you enough information to understand what is going on without you having to look up other stories. It gives you the basic information. Yes, you can get more detail by reading outside sources, but all the information to understand the story should be in the story. Fusion does this. If new players play it now, it gives them enough information to understand what is going on without you requiring anything else. If you want to go and find out details, you can go play Other M but Other M is not required in order to understand Fusion. In order to understand Other M you are required to have read the manga. The Metroid provides you with enough information in 3 to understand what is going on even if you have not played 2 or 1. You will get more out of the game if you have played the stuff that comes before it, but it isn't required. The Mass Effect Series does this also, its comics add information, but reading them is not required to understand the game. Any good book Series with multiple books does this to. It gives you enough background information to know what is going on. It makes things clear but doesn't go into ridiculus detail.
Even if we do, it still does not excuse the lack of explanation being terribly poor form. If you have to read a book to understand a videogame something is wrong. Very wrong.
I am not saying it would be an issue. I am just saying that it being a thing does not excuse the lack of explanation in the game. Why couldn't they have just told us in the game?
In Fusion it was asked, but we have still yet to get a reason why Samus would obay Adam or respect after he shot her in the back. The issue for most is it makes them feel like they have playing an idiot. She seems so skilled, Fusion suggests she has had to do tough stuff in the past, but it never made her seem like an idiot. Or Adam for that matter. It made Adam seem like he knew better than Samus, that he was the best commander ever. Now he just seems like an arse. Again, why did Samus follow those orders. Because it was Adam. Well, why was Adam actually important to her? Err...father figure...because why? What makes Adam so special. I honestly feel that all the stuff it does bring up as questions to answer in Fusion Other M actually fails to answer.
Goodstory-telling does not just mean it makes you ask questions. Otherwise Season 6 of Doctor Who would not be nearly as bad as it is. Anyone can ask question. Proving satisfying answer that make sense is the hard part. Sakamoto is simply not skilled enough to do that, or so Other M would tell us. What more do we know about Adam? He once had to let his brother die. My question, if the thing they were on when that happen could still fly without the drive unit, why was Ian sat there? It is a routine fix, well, again, if the drive unti is not rquired to fly the ship why not just lose the drive unit?
No. Simply this. Shoot the infant Metroid. Kill it. Then have him calmly, rationaly explain to Samus the situation. Then either have Samus accept his sacrifice and let him go off to kill them all. Or, have her declare loudly that she is not going to let someone else die when she has the chance to save them. Then you can either have her convince Adam and go into Sector Zero together and bring absolute hell to the Metroids via Missles, perhaps having Adam save Samus by taking a bullet and then Samus goes on to avenge him or have Adam shoot her in the back to stop her from doing something that will get her killed. Have him go in her place. Explain that he can't let her do it and then play out the rest of the scene.
It makes the scene far more tolerable. Especially if Samus agrees with Adam and sees him off. Heck, you could even have them storm Sector Zero together and then end up fighting MB and have Adam take a bullet for her due to her own hesitation at killing someone that maybe she viewed did not deserve to die because she had been wronged and Samus could understand that.
There are ways it could have been done that would have been far better than what they did.
I KNOW! That is the thing. If you Quit and then reload the game after the Ridley fight. It brings you up to speed on the most current events, and it says she fought Ridley and fired shots wildly.
But your support is all dead. You aren't defending anyone except MB. The reason that it is bad is bnecause you press the fire button, the examine button and nothing that follows is either of those fuctions. You look onto her and you have to press the A button. You have to press the button to fire your gun to finish the game and then your gun simply does not fire.
I don't think she was one-dimensional at all. I actually cared about her. This is the thing that most games sort of do not understand particularly well. You do not need a complex character to tell a deep and emmotional story that makes us ask questions. In fact, I question, why do we want games like that? If they want to tell a story, why not just tell a story? Why make it a game?
You can go through the Prime game without knowing anything about things really...if you do that, the game lacks the majority of its depth. You don't need to understand its story depth to make it fun game.
I fail to see how if I am honest because the game is lacking important information to make us understand the intent.
Again, with such a divide, how it could possibly have worked as intended?
That's like saying that Bioware achieved what they intended with the ending of Mass Effect 3. If they had there would have been no outcry and they wouldn't have finally decided to release an updated one.
Such a divide to me says that whatever Sakamoto was trying to do he clearly failed to do it.
Last edited by DarkRaku on 09.14.12 9:03am, edited 1 time in total.
Here's the short of it: Most people on this board were here when Other M landed, and the shit hit the fan. People loved it and moved on. Other's hated it and kept arguing about why they hated it. And kept arguing about why they hated it. And kept arguing about why they hated it. And kept arguing about why they hated it.
To get the general gist of the majority of the hatred, look up nearly every post by a member named KingBroly. He was the grandmaster of Other M hate/conspiracy theory, and a major thorn in the side of moving on. Most of the people (at least I think they're all people) on this board today are generally quite adept at conversing without full-blown arguments. At least I hope so. And with that, I'd say to be careful, because you seem to be approaching dangerous levels of Broly awfully quick. It's kind of like the opposite of Inception, you'd best not go any deeper. Some things were designed to be deep, others (like Metroid as a whole) were meant to be tastefully shallow. If you want to apply depth to it, you have to be cunning about it, else you look the part of the loon. Just be careful, well thought-out, and well-researched. Don't half-ass it. And be careful to not get hung up on certain details.
If you want to witness the evolution of the debate about the game, I suggest looking through all of the hate threads on this sub-forum. It's all been covered, from "Misawa was the Deleter" to "Adam is a sexist asshole and deserves to die." Oddly enough, though, the nickname thing was never really an issue on this forum. But that's mostly because the majority of Metroid fans know a Lady when they see one and understand that Samus is indeed the Princess of the Chozo...
And the majority of nitpicks nowadays are about the technical details.
You have to remember something about MGS and Metroid: MGS had an absurd plot from the very beginning that just got more absurd. Metroid, on the other hand, had a plot that was humble, and stayed humbled. MGS had story out the wazoo from the beginning, and boy was it a story. Metroid had little story from the beginning, and only got a little more story every episode, until one game came and said "STORY TIME, BITCHES!!" Applying MGS's story-telling to Metroid would be a horrible mistake, mostly because Metroid fans like coherency. That interest in coherency is why people take issue with Other M's story.
See, a midquel is supposed to fill holes left by entries taking place before it and holes created by entries taking place after it, and end up a nice, tidy package. A midquel should never make holes of its own. A midquel should never raise questions that it can't answer. If you want a reason for the story to go on, then expect something to come of other unanswered questions from the chronologically-latest entry in the series. (i.e. - Fusion). Or, just hope that they are clever enough to come up with something original without having to rely on a hook from a previous entry. Basically, Other M was the MGS-style game you didn't know you didn't want.
Look at the Star Wars prequels. They were there to make money and fill holes. They did just that. They didn't make too many other holes, but they did fill a lot of holes. Though, one could argue that they filled those holes in questionable ways. Sometimes the mystery is better than the revelation, though. That's usually the main reason why people hate prequels and midquels, because they answer questions that people didn't care too much about, and those questions could just have easily been answered in an actual sequel. Prequels are a bad idea roughly 70% of the time, and midquels are a bad idea roughly 99% of the time.
If you want a good, in-depth analysis of how Other M's story could have been better, then I suggest you check out the (sadly) abandoned reMovie series on YouTube. They were created by a guy that actually enjoyed Other M to a good degree, but knew where the weak points in its story were.
And the Ridley scene was fleshed out by the live-action Other M commercial that had that totally kick-ass music. It was quick and concise, and had a good chance of being seen by a lot of the people that played the game. Sad part is that they probably played the game with the hopes of getting a better understanding of that scene in the commercial.
Also, you missed the blatant Futurama reference. Just...whoosh...
X-Ray Scope Acquired!
At this point, more attention to game play and a minimal story is exactly what Metroid needs. I'm not against the idea of a Metroid game with a well thought out story, but Other M's story is one of the reasons why this game sold as poorly as it did. If the next Metroid game is anything like Other M it's not going to sell and that will put the future of the series in jeopardy. If Nintendo wants to make a Metroid game with a little more story somewhere down the line, that's fine as long as gameplay and level design aren't sacrificed, but the next game really needs to go back to what made the series successful in the first place.
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