Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Discuss anything related to Metroid: Other M here!
kuribo4

User avatar

Mochtroid
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 05.18.14 5:11pm

Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby kuribo4 » 05.18.14 5:26pm

First: Hello! I'm new.
Im not sure if I can already call myself a Metroid fan but yeah I like it. ^^
I won't participate in this discussion (if things get "dangerous") because people often get angry about this stuff. A lot. xD :kraid:
I post it here becasue MP being canon is relevant to Other M (and in general Sakamoto's Metroid).
Maybe somebody has translated this already...I hope this is a good contribution. I can translate the whole interview but tomorrow. Now only the relevant part.

This was an interview in the spanish ONM.
The magazine: http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae60 ... b1efef.png
The interview (sorry the photos suck):
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae60 ... 23d6c9.png
Sakamoto's pretty face:
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae60 ... 965eef.png
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae60 ... 597705.png
Relevant part:
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae60 ... f98e13.png
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae60 ... f98e13.png

Translation:
In the time period of GameCube, Retro Studios took care of the franchise. Why did you make this decision?

We wanted to explore Metroid's possibilities as subjective (first person) action game. A member of Nintendo mentioned Retro, a studio that had great experience in this field. I didn't participate a lot in these games: I supervised that they maintained the essence of the franchise, but we gave them a lot of liberty with the plot. In fact, I have always seen the story of the Primes as alternative and not integrated in the story of the other Metroids, that's the reason they had total liberty when creating it. And Samus was different, tougher.
Also I haven't played Other M, but I defend Sakamoto's right as an artist not to include a game he hasn't made in his interpretation of Metroid.
And that (Other M spoilers)
thus the fact that Samus doesn't care about Meta Ridley in MP isn't relevant.
I hope this helps in some way.
And Samus' design in Smash isn't sexist. She's still bada.. ;) :cool:
Last edited by kuribo4 on 05.18.14 6:08pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zynux

User avatar

Super Metroid
 
Posts: 3103
Joined: 12.13.11 8:56pm

Re: Spanish interview: Metroid Prime is not canon

Postby Zynux » 05.18.14 5:43pm

Sounds to me Sakamoto just says that MP plot isn't relevant to Other M's plot (which is true). Has no bearing on whether it's canon or not. Many people seem to be misinterpreting the similar quotes about Prime over the years, I don't believe Sakamoto ever once insinuated that Prime wasn't canon.

Anyways, welcome to the forums.
"Cut! There are no second chances for actors that fall to the abyss. Await your second casting in the darkness forever." - The Night of Wallachia

Image
Ridley prepping his body for Other M

kuribo4

User avatar

Mochtroid
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 05.18.14 5:11pm

Re: Spanish interview: Metroid Prime is not canon

Postby kuribo4 » 05.18.14 6:04pm

Sounds to me Sakamoto just says that MP plot isn't relevant to Other M's plot (which is true). Has no bearing on whether it's canon or not. Many people seem to be misinterpreting the similar quotes about Prime over the years, I don't believe Sakamoto ever once insinuated that Prime wasn't canon.

Anyways, welcome to the forums.
Thanks! ^^
I don't know if it is because of my translation, but he does absolutely say that Metroid Prime does not occur in his version of the story. I am a kind of person that would obsess over a game if I made it, and it would make me angry if people thought events of a game made by another person are relevant if they are not. Sakamoto can be that kind of person and it seems that is the case.
It seems like many Metroid fans (not saying that's your case) see that as him saying the MP games are inferior, but that isn't the case at all. And I think fanbases in general obsess too much with canon, like they need the absolute truth. That should only be the case with wikis. Art doesn't work like that. It should only be relevant this way:
The artist (Sakamoto) considers these events as events that occur in the world of his work. Is he a good writer keeping that in mind? Of course including MP would make him a bad writer, that's the reason Other M exists in a different work. Abstract works would only make this more complicated, but that isn't the case (I think... I haven't played Other M).
Like I said I don't want to make anyone angry. I respect other views and you have the right to enjoy these games like you want.

EDIT:
I can't edit the topic title, can I? It totally sounds like wanting to start a war here. xD And it contradicts what I just said. MP is canon in Retro Studio's work. The title should be something like "Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid".

Tim

User avatar

MDB Staff - Engineer
 
Posts: 300
Joined: 09.01.11 4:58pm

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby Tim » 05.18.14 6:24pm

Changed the title for you.

My problem with this is that Sakamoto should have told someone about what was canon and what wasn't rather than leaving it to speculation and casual mentions in interviews. It would have gone a long way towards managing expectations if Samus had mentioned in the beginning of Other M that she'd only been on 3 missions prior and been really unambiguous about leaving out the Prime games so people knew what to expect instead of confusing people.

It's like the Gaming Brit said; "People haven't been playing Super Metroid for the past 10 years, they've been playing [the Metroid Prime games]."
Image

kuribo4

User avatar

Mochtroid
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 05.18.14 5:11pm

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby kuribo4 » 05.18.14 6:58pm

Changed the title for you.

My problem with this is that Sakamoto should have told someone about what was canon and what wasn't rather than leaving it to speculation and casual mentions in interviews. It would have gone a long way towards managing expectations if Samus had mentioned in the beginning of Other M that she'd only been on 3 missions prior and been really unambiguous about leaving out the Prime games so people knew what to expect instead of confusing people.

It's like the Gaming Brit said; "People haven't been playing Super Metroid for the past 10 years, they've been playing [the Metroid Prime games]."
Thanks for changing the title!
I completely agree with you. Maybe he thought it would be disrespectful towards Retro Studios, although I think it wouldn't be. There was also that video in which Samus talks about her previous adventures and it leaves Metroid Prime out, but it is still ambiguous. In the end, it has just confused everyone.
And sorry if this is off-topic, but I would like to create a signature and have read the FAQ, but I don't find the option in the Control Panel. :(

Xerkxes

User avatar

Metroid Queen
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: 09.08.10 11:18pm

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby Xerkxes » 05.18.14 9:42pm

Changed the title for you.

My problem with this is that Sakamoto should have told someone about what was canon and what wasn't rather than leaving it to speculation and casual mentions in interviews.."
I think it might be he's not allowed too. I get the impression has his own opinion, but will be fried (not fired, fried) if he was to make a claim without Nintendo's consent.
I completely agree with you. Maybe he thought it would be disrespectful towards Retro Studios
I suspect he doesn't like prime.
He constantly states he had nothing to do with it, and tries to seperated his work from Retro's with vague statements.
Quite possibly because Metroid prime did better than even his "best". despite Super's being so highly praised, Prime sold.



I've seen interviews though, where Sakamoto regards the Primes as just a telling of a different side of Samus character (talking about how it was supposed to show her more professional side), implying that it's the same Samus.
then I've seen one.... where I don't know if it was just translated badly, but sounded he tried to decanonnize Other M! I'll see if I can't find it again, but it was a difficult read.


EDIT:
Nearly everybody has asked about the Prime series, which are part of the Metroid timeline, but are completely different.
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/tran ... -interview

The paragraph is in discussion of the "Difference of Samus" East and West version (Prime and Other M)
He also goes on to say how Prime could be another facet of Samus' personality, but does say things in his usually extremely flip-flop manner over the subject.


EDIT: besides, if Prime becomes it's own cannon seperate from Sakamoto's timeline, I'll stick with Primes.
It's the one that takes all the other games into consideration and doesn't have Other M's story in it.
Xerkxes: "Makes you wonder why Samus just didn't take one of the Crystals with her, and constantly charge it with the light beam while using it as a God damned +5 Brilliant Energy Spear of Smite-Ing "

Tim

User avatar

MDB Staff - Engineer
 
Posts: 300
Joined: 09.01.11 4:58pm

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby Tim » 05.19.14 12:23am

And sorry if this is off-topic, but I would like to create a signature and have read the FAQ, but I don't find the option in the Control Panel. :(
ucp.php?i=profile&mode=signature
I think it might be he's not allowed too. I get the impression has his own opinion, but will be fried (not fired, fried) if he was to make a claim without Nintendo's consent.
I completely agree with you. Maybe he thought it would be disrespectful towards Retro Studios
I suspect he doesn't like prime.
He constantly states he had nothing to do with it, and tries to seperated his work from Retro's with vague statements.
Quite possibly because Metroid prime did better than even his "best". despite Super's being so highly praised, Prime sold.
I don't know why he wouldn't be allowed to unless Iwata has some rule about every game they make has to fit into a timeline. Which, if that's the case then I guess we now know why the Zelda timeline is more of a multiverse.

I've wondered if maybe Sakamoto has a bit of a chip on his shoulder about the Primes considering how he does try to distance himself from them. Because remember Prime came out at the same time as Fusion and remember the context behind those games. Fusion was the next proper followup to Super Metroid and Gunpei Yokoi had left so Sakamoto was now the top guy behind the project. Fusion was his first big game going solo and no one was expecting Prime to be very good.

But then everyone loved Prime while they complained about Fusion's linearity. I remember some people where arguing that Fusion shouldn't even be considered a proper Metroid game while some were suggesting Prime might have dethroned Super Metroid for the title of 'greatest thing ever'. Then comes Other M which really felt like it was trying hard to be something more. It had a very epic scope and really tried to associate itself with previous Metroid games with a lot of call backs and references. On my first playthrough it felt like it was trying to prove something, but didn't know how. He did say in interviews that he was eager to hear the fans' feedback when Other M came out, but once he got it he had nothing to say. Like he had only anticipated praise. I think he felt like Other M wasn't just going to be good, but it was going to be a Prime killer and now that it's not he says he has no interest in Metroid for the time being. I can't help but feel like if fans loved Other M he'd be saying 'fuck yeah I want to keep making more'. Even if the sales numbers were still lackluster.

This is mostly supposition, but it's hard not to feel like there's a lot of ego behind Other M.
Image

Xerkxes

User avatar

Metroid Queen
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: 09.08.10 11:18pm

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby Xerkxes » 05.19.14 1:49am

I don't know why he wouldn't be allowed to unless Iwata has some rule about every game they make has to fit into a timeline.
Sakamoto may be Nintendo's "Metroid guy", and he may have poured a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into the series, but he does not own metroid, Nintendo does. If he wanted to take games out of the continuity he'd have to pass it through his superiors first.
Seeing as the Primes were a much bigger hit than Other M in both sales and popularity, I don't think they'd have said yes even if any of this was true, since we're speaking in theory and hypothetically.
I remember when the thought of "Prime not being cannon" first spread around due to some not suprisingly vague statements from Sakamoto, people were pissed. Tossing Primes cannon officially for "the sake of Other M" would be using gasoline to put out a house-fire. Nintendo can be extremely slow with change, but I sincerely doubt they'd want to add more fuel to that flame.

But they don't really have a "Every game must be cannon" rule, they openly don't do that with Mario.
Just... with Zelda it's fairly patchworky and Metroid...
-snip-
This is mostly supposition, but it's hard not to feel like there's a lot of ego behind Other M.
Yeah, got the feeling too.
Xerkxes: "Makes you wonder why Samus just didn't take one of the Crystals with her, and constantly charge it with the light beam while using it as a God damned +5 Brilliant Energy Spear of Smite-Ing "

kuribo4

User avatar

Mochtroid
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 05.18.14 5:11pm

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby kuribo4 » 05.19.14 11:42am

Thanks rondus18!

I don't think Sakamoto dislikes Metroid Prime. In the interview I translated he sounds very positive about it. Even the fact that they are not part of the storyline is positive, since it gave Retro a lot of liberty when writing. I suppose it's just that he feels weird about them (like any writer reading a fan fiction I suppose, just that in this case the "fan fiction" is really good).
I really don't think anybody at Nintendo cares about what is canon or isn't. If they did, that would suck, because you are limiting what your developers can do. Anyways, like I said, there is no canon. Sakamoto can decanonize (does that word exist? xD) MP in his own version of the Metroid story. There is no limit to imagination.
So there is Sakamoto's Metroid, Retro's Metroid, etc. I think people shouldn't obsess so much if Other M contradicts previous games, or what games you prefer to "exist" in the timeline. Just look at it as what it is. A fictional story with its message and stuff.
Edit:
I suppose that what he means with the Samus from MP is that it is a different interpretation of the Samus character, not that she is the same.
Also proof that Ninty doesn't care too much about canon: Aonuma said in an interview that the timeline was written by fans (Nintendo employees probably). Fans want Oracle to be a part of the timeline for example, even though that contradicts the very idea of the game-a different team making a different Zelda. And that's the reason we now have that horrible, weird and complicated retcon timeline when the timeline was actually very simple. It had some "errors" because the objective of the timeline was not to be viewed as a whole, it just served to situate each game in relation of a previous one. That makes it easier to create a new story and it works as fanserviece.
...This is a Metroid forum, but yeah I think that shows they don't care about this kind of stuff.

And that stuff about Sakamoto makes sense. Very dramatic...

Xerkxes

User avatar

Metroid Queen
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: 09.08.10 11:18pm

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby Xerkxes » 05.19.14 3:09pm

Edit: What I originally wrote came off as rather... Angry, so I'll try this again.

Corperations monitor closely what their employees say. if Sakamoto was to say something Nintendo doesn't want him to, despite his opinions, they CAN have him redact the statement.
Otherwise, Sakamoto can say all he wants, but if Nintendo tells him to STFU, for the sake of his Job he'll have to STFU. Nintendo owns metroid, not sakamoto. They have last say, not him.

The Interview I linked says he does consider them cannon, in the same timeline even.
Even goes to say it's another facet for Samus, I believe by "different" he just means how he views Samus, which not a lot of people like.


Appearently Sakamoto cared greatly about continuity too, since he was trying to include aspects from the manga (which he also contradicted), explain Adam's Death for Fusion (which was badly done), explain why Ridley's corpse appears on the B.S.L. (one of the few things the game does right), Explain how the GF gets metroid DNA (because Super they wouldn't have gotten a chance, since ridley attacks shortly after Samus leaves).


The whole problem with continuity derives from ONE "bad" game in the eyes of many. Had Other M been written better, hell ONE sentance been slightly altered, it would be one less strike against Other M and there'd be no discussion about continuity.. Well besides the Ridley Freakout, but that' was just badly done, period, even not looking into past games.

If people could just chose to ignore certain games, I'm sure the majority of people will simply ignore Other M, since it's the Origins of the the problem and.. well not very good overall if it's sales are poor and it tears the metroid fans in two.
Actually, for years I've been reading that this is exactly what people are doing.
Xerkxes: "Makes you wonder why Samus just didn't take one of the Crystals with her, and constantly charge it with the light beam while using it as a God damned +5 Brilliant Energy Spear of Smite-Ing "

Zynux

User avatar

Super Metroid
 
Posts: 3103
Joined: 12.13.11 8:56pm

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby Zynux » 05.19.14 6:14pm

From the interviews I've read on this, it still seems clear to me that Sakamoto considers Prime canon (like that one interview where he called it a "Gaiden" series, which I actually agree with), though I will admit it is shrouded with vagueness and mystery. The think these statements can be interpreted multiple ways.
Edit: What I originally wrote came off as rather... Angry, so I'll try this again.
Haha, you've been saying this a lot lately but I don't see you being all that aggressive at all.
I suspect he doesn't like prime.
I definitely won't go as far as to say he dislikes Prime, but there may be some pride involved. As stated earlier, it wasn't his team games that people were playing (Fusion and Zero Mission), but was the Prime titles that became the "face" of Metroid for about a decade, and became one of the most critically acclaimed trilogies of all time. Especially with his claims that it showed a side of Samus that wasn't particularly fond of (which I find strange, since Sakamoto was the one that was able to explain to Retro pretty clearly how Samus was during that time, but I guess he changed his mind over the years).

The problem isn't being made by a western developer, being an FPS, or hell even maybe outshining his "own series" (the original trilogy and Fusion), but Samus herself may be the root of this problem. If I remember correctly, he made it pretty clear that Prime gave people the "wrong impression of Samus", and Other M's goal was to rectify that and expand Samus as a character.

So, in short:
Very dramatic...
Haha, yup. We can't get enough of our daily dose of Metroid drama! ;)

By the way, kuribo4, when was this magazine published (it was a Spanish magazine, right)? Just curious if these are his most recent thoughts. And I also want to thank you for taking the time to translate this! We haven't had much to discuss in the Other M board in a while besides redundant arguments :D
"Cut! There are no second chances for actors that fall to the abyss. Await your second casting in the darkness forever." - The Night of Wallachia

Image
Ridley prepping his body for Other M

Xerkxes

User avatar

Metroid Queen
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: 09.08.10 11:18pm

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby Xerkxes » 05.19.14 7:49pm

The problem isn't being made by a western developer, being an FPS, or hell even maybe outshining his "own series" (the original trilogy and Fusion), but Samus herself may be the root of this problem. If I remember correctly, he made it pretty clear that Prime gave people the "wrong impression of Samus", and Other M's goal was to rectify that and expand Samus as a character.
Won't say I understand this. while Samus in the primes show "Some" character, not sure there's enough to merit stating "Oh, that's TOTALLY not Samus".
I mean.. prime 1 and 2 there's very little to go on... and prime three we get she's angry and somewhat broody... toss in a 10 minute monologue about what happened in the past 5 minutes and we'd have the Samus from Other M.
From what I've read, all I got was that he pointed out that Retro made her "Tough"... when his Gameplay from Other M insinuate the same thing.

To me, Sakamoto just doesn't know what he's talking about... like ever.
Xerkxes: "Makes you wonder why Samus just didn't take one of the Crystals with her, and constantly charge it with the light beam while using it as a God damned +5 Brilliant Energy Spear of Smite-Ing "

Zynux

User avatar

Super Metroid
 
Posts: 3103
Joined: 12.13.11 8:56pm

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby Zynux » 05.19.14 9:50pm

To me, Sakamoto just doesn't know what he's talking about... like ever.
Not too surprising. I love Miyamoto, but over the years I've been thinking the same thing about him. Some of his interviews I'm just like "...the hell are you on? Shrooms?"

Sakamoto is probably drunk on energy tanks.
"Cut! There are no second chances for actors that fall to the abyss. Await your second casting in the darkness forever." - The Night of Wallachia

Image
Ridley prepping his body for Other M

kuribo4

User avatar

Mochtroid
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 05.18.14 5:11pm

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby kuribo4 » 05.21.14 4:40pm

Zynux, no problem! ^^ But I think I should translate the whole interview when I have time. He doesn't talk about Prime, but still.
The magazine is from 2010, when the game came out (because the same magazine contains the review, they gave it a 94, the people from this magazine always give high scores, also the ones responsible for other consoles. Sometimes I agree, sometimes not). So it isn't really the most recent.

Xerkxes, when Sakamoto talks about how the Samus from Prime is different, I think he is really talking about how she reacts to Ridley. I think his idea of tough is that she is a damaged person that still goes on.
The thing is Super Metroisd was 16bit, there wasn't really dialog, so it is a very ambiguous game. The MP games are like that too, but since they are recent games, you would expect to see every reaction of Samus. When gamers see Samus fight Ridley, the killer of her mother, the impression they get is "Wow, she's badass, she doesn't care". And that isn't how Sakamoto pictures that encounter at all. So the problem is with Other M he finally wanted to show how Samus feels, and then MP comes out and for a lot of gamers confirms that Samus is just like they thought she was.

Also, I forgot to read the interview you linked to. It is from a spanish site.
This part:
Regarding “the Samuses”, it is a complicated question. Nearly everybody has asked about the Prime series, which are part of the Metroid timeline, but are completely different.
I think it's wrong.
He says:
Sobre ‘las Samus', es una pregunta complicada. Casi todo el mundo me pregunta por la serie Prime, que la meten dentro de la misma línea, pero son distintas.
The sentence is pretty strange, but I understand it as "Regarding "the Samuses", it's a complicated question. Nearly everybody asks me about the Prime series, that they put in the same line, but they are different."
Different timeline? Different Samuses? Not sure. But the other translation is the opposite of what is said.

Also there is a part at the end that wasn't translated, pretty funny, Sakamoto sucks at drawing:
Entonces recordamos a Sakamoto sus estudios artísticos antes de ser contratado por Nintendo y le pedimos un dibujo de su heroína para los revogamers. El nipón, sorprendido porque conociéramos ese dato remoto, confesó entre risas y rubor que era "horrible dibujando", que incluso "se me da mucho mejor la programación" y que es "tan malo que mis storyboards no los entiende nadie", así que se disculpó por no poder acceder a la petición.
Then we reminded Sakamoto about his art studies that he did before joining Nintendo and we requested a drawing of his heroine. He was surprised because we knew about his studies, and confessed laughing and embarrased that he is "horrible at drawing", that he is even "much better at programming" and that he is "so bad that nobody understands my storyboards", so he apologized.

Doc Scratch

User avatar

Omega Metroid
 
Posts: 770
Joined: 09.15.10 2:02am

Re: Metroid Prime is not canon in Sakamoto's Metroid

Postby Doc Scratch » 07.12.14 2:59am

I defend my right to not give a damn about Sakamoto's canon. Metroid Prime is a far better game and more interesting addition to the Metroid mythos than Other M.

Also...
Xerkxes, when Sakamoto talks about how the Samus from Prime is different, I think he is really talking about how she reacts to Ridley. I think his idea of tough is that she is a damaged person that still goes on.
The thing is Super Metroisd was 16bit, there wasn't really dialog, so it is a very ambiguous game. The MP games are like that too, but since they are recent games, you would expect to see every reaction of Samus. When gamers see Samus fight Ridley, the killer of her mother, the impression they get is "Wow, she's badass, she doesn't care". And that isn't how Sakamoto pictures that encounter at all. So the problem is with Other M he finally wanted to show how Samus feels, and then MP comes out and for a lot of gamers confirms that Samus is just like they thought she was.
This reasoning is wrong. Super Metroid had text at the start. Other 16-bit games like the Mega Man X series had tons of dialogue. Dialogue is not something that magically appeared during the seventh generation of consoles. You want to know why Super Metroid doesn't have dialogue or narration past the start of the game? It's because it would disrupt its feel, a feel of loneliness and wonder and presence. A scene like the final boss fight doesn't need Samus to monologue lines like "Why am I still alive?" In fact, the scene loses something, as we saw with that horrendous Other M intro.

Super Metroid could have had long monologues and Samus breaking down in front of Ridley. It didn't because those are stupid things to add to a game like Super Metroid.
Suckers.


Return to “%s” Metroid: Other M

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

cron