metroid VS. metroid prime

[joshex]

Ok..., allow this one more comment;

you don't understand what I was saying, your biased view has forced you to think my words meant one thing when they meant something different..

number 1, when I said things looked different I didn't mean the difference between realistic and non-realistic. I meant the changes in "shape" and anatomy.. and in some cases color.. looking realistic is fine..

however, you have to take into account how they're going to interact in a 3D environment. The wall-jumping, for example, not only would have been really difficult, there aren't as many narrow vertical corridors in a 3D game where it even could have been used.

mm, do you see the flaw in that statement? honest? people can decide to make a room wide or narrow. they can decide to make a 3D room that would require you to wall-jump in to get to the top in 3D.. my point is they don't.. and thats just a choice, it can be done in 3D..

I imagine the Spider Ball is another that you would consider to have been drastically changed, but again in a 3D environment it has to act differently. An item that literally let you roll up any surface would have been too powerful - the only obstacles in the game would have been doors that you didn't have the prerequisite beam or weapon type to open, whereas in a 2D game an enemy crawling on the wall or a simple spike tile blocks your path.

um and in metroid 2 the return of samus if they didn't want you to go somewhere with spiderball, they would put spikes on the wall, cieling ETC. to stop you from doing so.. or as with out side an acidic atmosphereic smog layer that when it touches you in spider ball form causes you to unstick..

of coarse you know all that.. but one question? you know a spike tile can be made into a spike tile ring in 3D right.. or it can just cover an area of a wall with spikes so there is no way to spiderball up it or around it.. simple... just instead of one single spike tile you are looking at a row of them..

The appearance of Samus, her suit in particular, wasn't consistent throughout the original 2D series. Improved graphics aside, the artwork readily indicates that her appearance changed dramatically from the first game to the second and third games. You even acknowledged as much when describing your models for her helmet.

Furthermore, the artwork for those old games does make her armor appear to be metallic - it has the same sheen to it that the prime armor suits have (I suspect that the main difference is that for the earlier games it was all drawn, but in 3D the shiny metallic look is more apparent). In the first metroid, the accepted design for the Varia suit hadn't even been concieved, despite the Varia suit being in the game.

Furthermore, between these four designs for the original Power Suit, the design from Metroid I is by far the most different, and the Prime design is much closer to the Metroid II and Super Metroid designs:

yes I ackknowledge the suit looks very different from metroid 1 compared to 2 and 3.. this should tell you i had something planned to deal with this fact... as it was never said "why her suit looked different" and it wouldn't harm the story to explain it (EX; metroid zero mission's starting suit isn't the full suit we've come to know..) I don't dislike all of metroid zero mission there were some good Ideas behind it..

my idea was very similar.. metalic in the artwork? um it's shiny, but I'm shure that artist knew that metal's reflecting of light is "hard" which means it's pinpointed and very noticable.. after looking at countes images of saums's suit both in artwork and sprites, I came to the conclusion that for the most part (even in some M1 art) samus's suit didn't have that metalic hardness of reflected light.. instead the reflection was softer, like that of plastis/rubber or a carbon alloy..

varia suit may not have changed samus in anything but color in the original game but I had something planed to explain that as well.. (her original chozo suit didn't have the capability to use varia suit to it's full extent cause the suit was out of date compared to the item)

Super Metroid Varia Suit
That drawing seems particularly out of proportion to me, much moreso than the Metroid: Prime Varia suit.

first off thats an agled shot of the waist, so it a little wider from a front view (as is normal, even in reality) but I agree it does look different than the in-game samus with varia, which is why I wasn't planning to make samus's varia suit solely based on concept art, but rather based on ingame proportions.. does that make sense?

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I chalk that up to a really minor complaint the likes of which you'd have to deal with in almost any fiction. Very rarely are the creators of a game/movie/book series so meticulous that nothing ever slips, and the diehard fans are always going to catch those mistakes.

yes very rare do developers do such, especially now-a-days. in the 80's-90's it was hardly heard of. now it's become a cool trend in the game developer community.. by many it's considdered "putting their own artistic touch on it..."

While not 10-15', she still can jump awfully high (well above 3'), and the Prime version of the Space Jump is a good hybrid of the original high jump (increasing your jump height) and space jump (jumping mid-air), without allowing too much free reign of the 3D environment too early in the game. It also allows for better mid-air maneuverability than the old high jump did.

I can jump with 3ft beneath me...and I bet theres someone out there who can do it in a full suit of armor... and that is without the power boosts that samus's suit supplies.. (which is supposed to allow her to be light and graceful in the air)

you mean space jump boots was a good hybrid? well on this note they did that cause again they didn't want to take the initiative to make "barriers" that even space jump cant pass, it's easy to do; make a set of faces over the top of the scenery tell it not to be rendered or cast/ take shaddows ETC. and set deflection on it..

there are other ways to hinder the "space jump" item as well (like acidic atmosphere that makes you stop spining thus no more jumping..). but usually when you get space jump you are near the end of the game anyways and it's expected that you have it.. (so by then you will be using it to access areas)

as for high(hi)-jump boots, you have to remember she does have airial mobility in 2D, she can change direction in mid air... with out a second jump, though I'd agree it doesn't change the direction as fast... but with spacejump-boots it's similar; there is "coasting" which means you can't go in the opposite direction from your initial jump easily..

again it all came down to how much intiative the team felt like taking on the project.. both with space jump and highjump.. they decided not to put an invisible roof over the top and so, no spacejump... until metroid prime2 that is.. when they included it in screwatack.. but it only allowed you like 11 jumps at best.. and you couldn't change the direction once you started, again becuase they didn't want to take initiative to put up anti space jump barriers where they didn't want you jumping to..

they didn't make the scenery high/tall enough either (another choice they made)

Samus in Prime is quick, rather than heavy and clunky, and if you think about it many of the boss battles require you to be quick on your feet. The side boosting, boost ball, high jumping, all contribute to her speed an agility. She doesn't seem any more unwieldy in the Prime games than she does in the old games to me, with the exception of not having the speed boost.

she's not as quick cause that would be disorienting in 1st person, boostball ( thats third person anyways..) side boosting.. never dealt with that item but I think I understand it makes her jump to the side quicker right? ok.. well why make an Item jusy to make up for lost abbillities?.. oh and her high jumping didn't help me dodge much in fact I kept getting plastered by bosses no matter how I jumped or rolled to the side.. in short inoreder for an object as big as samus to dodge anything thats shot at her she needs to be able to move ALOT. hence the 15-20+ft max high jump boots...

I agree that a 3D Metroid can work in 3rd person, I just don't think it has to. Ultimately I think the 1st person perspective does more to replicate the feeling of the Metroid series than a 3rd person game would, even though it's more of a departure from the original gameplay.

but the old games weren't first person! there were FPS's on the NES and SNES, but they stunk! at least compared to modern ones... metroid can work in 3rd person, it was technically in 3rd person (being a side scroller) cause you weren't seeing through the eyes of the character.. except on the odd occasion (x-ray-scope) and that was still managed in 3rd person..

so if it works in 3rd person... why change it? why step aside from what you know both works and keeps the gameplay as much like the old series as best?

MP is a departure from the original gameplay.. you said so your self.. the "feel" of the metroid series was best in the 2D side scrollers (cause that is "what" the feel of the metroid series is), and honestly MP gives me like 20% of that "feel"..

where as after thinking it out, I really do see that the 3rd person atmosphere can open it up and make that "feel" we had int he old games comeback in full form..

With the exception of Space Pirates, the new look for enemies really isn't something I have a problem with. With better graphics and the shift to 3D I think it's good that they went with a more realistic look than sticking to the old cartoonier looks. Those worked perfectly well for the 2D games, but I think they wouldn't have gone over as well in 3D. And again, as with the design of Samus' suit, the looks of the enemies hasn't always been consistent even between the older 2D games. Ridley and Kraid are obvious examples, but even simpler enemies like the Sidehopper underwent some design changes. Add to that the fact that relatively few enemies appear consistently throughout the Metroid series. In the Prime games Space Pirates and Geemers are the only two that immediately come to mind.

agiain what I was talking about has nothing to do with realistic/cartoony, it has to do with general shape and color, granted there have been some small changes from M1 to M3 in appearence, but said changes were very small. you mention kraid and ridley's differences in looks most specifically, and I agree, did you know I had a way to explain this in my game as well? you probably didn't cause I never told you... so whats the explanation? (mother brain created kraid and ridley, and after they failed in metroid 1, she redesinged them to make up for thier weaknesses (mobility, size, weak points ETC.)that way she would count on them to better protect her in the future.. she would alos redesign herself moments before being destroyed (I had it all planned out, it would show cut scenes showing a little bit of mother brain's brain and a monitor in torion for ridley and kraid, where as for her self you would be able to see the monitor as you fight her..

in prime alot of enemies were deemed not FPS worthy (not they were "3D worthy" cause what ever workds in 2D can work in some extent in 3D, maybe with a little barely noticable change of adding programming for the extra axis)

some other changes metroids, they made them smaller and very oddly shaped. honestly they looked like mochtroids... they also messed up what it takes to defeat a metroid (you shouldn't be able to do so with beam EVER) ice beam then 5 missiles, but no it's only one missile in MP..

metroid abbilities they made seperate metroid species to say that not all metroids can split... and not all can morph another retcon.. (making metroid2 impossible cause the motriods on SR388 both split under certain conditions and morph under others..)

they alos made a "hunter metroid" and called it the next step in metroid evolution (morhping) another retcon..

thats metroids, how about some others, they intended to use side hoppers but realized they would be disorienting to a 1st person view if you were locked onto them (cause they would jump over you head and spin you around...) in 3rd person this wouldn't be a problem.. so they left it as a "xenotropic life-form" making a door shake only int he very begining of the game.. i would note they fixed that in metroid prime 2 in the multiplayer session, you'll note one of the multiplayrer boards has a single sidehopper.. it from the quick glimpse I got the only thing I could recognise was it was jumping off the cieling.. (it looked very different)

theres more on creatures, skree's known as skriek bats in MP, attacked more like "wavers" in MP, and thier looks were off, no this wasn't due to changes that had to be made to make it 3D again it was becasue they didn't fit in FPS properly the way they were (cause samus would have to be able to shoot directly up)...

geemers and space pirates; you noted them they act different and are defeated differently.. and they lookd differently, the "zoomer" looked more like a proper geemer (the color was like super metroid's geemersas well..) also you'll note in prime they only had the space pirate zebsians and called a space pirate zebsian with a jet pack a flying pirate.. in super metroid there were two breeds of space pirates both from zebes, the space pirate zebsian (walking), and space pirate ki-hunter (flying) (my own opinion; I always thought of them as male and female of the same species, but they were definately of the same specias.. and there was only one space pirate species mentioned..)

lets see those are some pretty key changes in shape, color and function especially in the two key creatures; the metroid and the space pirates..

again this has nothing to do with realistic/unrealistic, this has to do with shape, coloring and function. realistic/unrealistic can just be the difference between textured and untextured in most cases.. that and the lighting and reflectivity..

Which parts didn't you shoot or bomb in the old Metroid games? Many hidden passages usually had to be cleared away first, requiring that you shoot them with something or drop a bomb next to them. The concept of blasting your way through things was rooted in Metroid long before Prime came along, and has always been an essential part of exploration.

you aren't understandiong how I meant that.. in metroid you did shoot/bomb most everything, you are right1 but "how" you did was different, with the exception of the metal gates in super metorid there weren't many "shoot "this" to activate "this"" scenarios, prime was littered with then, if it wasn't scanning it to open it it was shooting a button..

the game started off with a blocked tunnel you had to use a charge beam shot to get rid of the debris, but afterwards we hardly saw such things.. they could do it, but decided that it would be easier not to.. that and it would be hard to find certain secrets because there might not even be a crack to let you know there was a secret, the only way to see it was see into the scenery , yes again as I was saying before that means like my concept picture where ytou can see whats in the ground/wall cieling around samus.. not just the outside of it..

Pirate technology vs. Chozo and Luminoth technology. It makes sense that in the cramped confines of an underground base or a ship they would have small single-passenger elevators, but that in the cities of the Chozo and Luminoth they would have larger platforms capable of moving more people.

um.. good try! but zebes had a chozo city once too, multiple cities (underground) and when the space pirates did go there they uprooted what ever the chozo's used and replaced them with there own system.. so... one more question on this not how do you explain the space pirates own elevators in the ship and in phazon mines? wouldn't they just make them like thier own elevators? and if they wanted to lift more pirates at once allong with cargo wouldn't they just use a really big energy platform? I eman they were above using non-energy elevators...

It's not as if there was a defined look for Samus, she's a video game character that wears a helmet 99% of the time. I don't think there was even any official artwork depicting her face until Super Metroid. In the original series her hair color wasn't even consistent within the same game - she would switch from a brunette to having green hair, or in Super Metroid she was a blonde in the game while having purple hair in all the artwork. If anything now we have a more consistent appearance for her, which is the one they settled with in Zero Mission and have used continuously since then.

ok you aren't seeing the implications behind green, blonde, brunette and purple hair are you? (mind you this is just an educated guess but); her hair color chages with her mood and/or situation, so the green hair in metroid game-play could be atributed to cretain feelings samus was having about the mission, and naturally when it was over she was "calm" and her hair color went back to normal (and yes that was supposed to be blonde it just looked like brown hair cause they tried to add shadowing to it)

purple hair, maybe it was the suit giving her a certain mind set, by chance wasn't it gravity suit? and is't it's color purple/violet?

off of her hair and onto facial looks, in the super metroid artwork we did see samus's face, but it was hardly accomodating to the in-game faces that we had come to lsee so far, it looked nothing like them... also in super metroid in the game we did see samus's face. though I will note the face I came up with for my model is very similar to metroid zero mission's samus but not exactly.. so yeah I'd say both our samuses are close.. where as prime's initial one wasn't close to anything but samus in her 40's.. and then the next MP one doesn't look like MZM samus at all but more like metroid2's samus face..

supermetroid samus's close up; http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p271 ... ssface.png

and slap green hair on it and it might look like out of suit samus in original metroid..

Since he's dead I don't know that it's fair to assume he never would have reused the music from Super Metroid, but regardless I think this is nitpicking. If the music is appropriate for the environment, then I don't see a problem with reusing it. Furthermore, it builds familiarity and recognizable music is used in many fictional series to help tie them together.

hmm, if it fit.. then yes, but you have to realise the situation would have to be exactly the same, for example there were two different norfair thems but only one norfair, same with 2 different norfair depths music. and blue brinstar although used twice had different music both times..

so understand if there is any difference in it at all it warrents a different theme entirely.. reusing music is not something yokoi would have done cause it was un warrented... why not just compose a new tune to fit the new circumstances exactly?

It's definitely a different gameplay, but any 3D game would be.

not any 3D game has to be AS different.. it all comes down to how much the developer wants to mess with it, it's all choice, do you mess with it?, or do you merely transelate it? most developers decide to mess with it, and they never seem to be satisfied with thier messing around they keep making more changes... they will never stop untill they come upon that "perfect" set-up for the game... and you know what that will be? what they were looking to do all along, make it just like the originals only 3D.. add the extra axis (so there is X,Y,Z, in stead of just X,Y), maybe continue the story, and and don't F**K with anything else.. once they get there the will be satisfied with thier "changes" they wont even realize that they, in the end came up with "not changing it" after all that changing..

I disagree about the atmosphere though - the feeling of seclusion on an alien planet is much better captured (in my opinion) by the 1st person viewpoint and the darker, more realistic graphics.

I can agree with realistic, thats good! but again the only difference between cartoon and realistic most of the time is the texture and reflectivity settings..

now as per the rest of that argument... is the feeling of prime the feeling of metroid EXACTLY? no it's the feeling of prime... did you get a feeling of seclusion on an alien planet with the 2D games? yes you did otherwise you wouldn't like metroid you'd only like prime. now about this 1st person view.. I will say this, it's one way to look at it, but it's not "the" way it "was" looked at.. do you understand that... in order to recreate the feeling of metroid you have to recreate it exactly like the old one were created, but they don't have to be 2D or side scrollers. all you do is add in the extra axis and controlls to deal with the extra axis and camera controls... done!, finished!, metroid atmosphere recreated in a fully 3D game!..

and one final question; do you like halo?

if yes; play halo to get your " on an alien planet is much better captured (in my opinion) by the 1st person viewpoint and the darker" and keep it out of interfereing with the old style of metroid..

if no; maybe you should play halo, you might like it... I mean it is; "on an alien planet is much better captured (in my opinion) by the 1st person viewpoint and the darker" and when you do find halo gives you that sense then; keep it out of interfereing with the old style of metroid..

metroid=metroid, halo=halo, metroid prime= metroid+halo... please donot mix these two! play halo seperately, then when the situation calls for some metroid; play metroid..

please!...

but again the main point of my rant is equality, you had your FPS view metroid in 3D, so what about people like me? we should have a chace at our 3rd person metroid in 3D no not a side scroller!!! it disgusts me that we have the capability to produce 3D games and nintendo refuses to produce anything like the old days in 3D (without it being a sidescroller)!

OR;

maybe we should do what they should have done all along! produce both at once! two seperate game series, one that follows the way it used to play and the way every thing was set-up, and one thats MP oriented.. calling them seperate dimentions.. each would be completely realistic, just one would have everything looking 90% like metroid or more, and the other would be your FPS fix of the series..

does that sound reasonable?

again this is about having 3D equality, you'll have yours and people like me will have ours, and who knows you might like "ours"

if you still argue with this than there is no hope for you...metroid wise, and all of us orginal series fans will labelled you as "metroid prime fans" and you wont be considdered official metroid fans. oh and I'd suggest calling your site "the metroid prime database" cause no doubt the courts will grant someone talking about the original series the rights the name "the metroid database" or you could forego that and split your site into two seperate databases, "Metroid Prime" and "original series", and/or add a third for smash brothers stuff as well..

however thats only if you still feel that people who want my style of metroid don't deserve our equality.. everyone desevers equality...

[Lazarius]

TL;DR - Lol.

[Evolution]

... Just

How the hell are you still pumping out so much shit?

Excuse me, but what do you know about videogames? It appears to me you that you know absolute jack. You're eating away at my belief that your fangame will be any bit good with your lack of understanding of 3D games.


But why don't I stop screaming out my disgust for a moment and give you a suggestion for the story of your game? I've got one right now:

"After the events of Super Metroid, Samus is sent to investigate a disaster on Planet Emdeebee.

Emdeebee was split into two different areas: Klaseek and Pryme. Both areas were paradises for the local life-forms, and the whole planet lived in peace. That is ... until a GIANT METEOR CRASHED INTO IT! KABOOM!

The Emdeebeeans watched in terror as a monster with a very large mouth and sharp teeth emerged from the smoking meteor. It told the Emdeebeeans that they should only live in Klaseek, for it was the first area of the planet to become habitable, and that they should hate Pryme because of its differences to Klaseek, the "holy land". The Emdeebeeans refused to leave Pryme, saying that it was beautiful and just as good as Klaseek, so the monster ate them!

Now, Samus must explore the ruins of Planet Emdeebee and reach the core to battle the giant monster! WILL SHE SURVIVE!?!?"

Do you like it?


But anyway, let me sum up my opposition. You have no idea what you're talking about and your biased view of the series makes you an ignorant boob. You're calling us arrogant? Take a look in the mirror, pal. If you think you can make us bash our heads against our desks repeatedly until we DIE by writing these unnecessarily long posts pointing out absolute crap for us to read, you're wrong.

But, I guess I'm the arrogant one that deserves to be ignored, right?

Ok..., allow this one more comment;

you don't understand what I was saying, your biased view has forced you to think my words meant one thing when they meant something different.

Well, aren't we off to a good start.

number 1, when I said things looked different I didn't mean the difference between realistic and non-realistic. I meant the changes in "shape" and anatomy.. and in some cases color.. looking realistic is fine..

As others have said, the differences between original Metroid and Metroid 2 make all subsequent artistic changes pale in comparison.

um and in metroid 2 the return of samus if they didn't want you to go somewhere with spiderball, they would put spikes on the wall, cieling ETC. to stop you from doing so.. or as with out side an acidic atmosphereic smog layer that when it touches you in spider ball form causes you to unstick.

of coarse you know all that.. but one question? you know a spike tile can be made into a spike tile ring in 3D right.. or it can just cover an area of a wall with spikes so there is no way to spiderball up it or around it.. simple... just instead of one single spike tile you are looking at a row of them..

You do realize that for the old school spiderball to work in 3d, you would have to cover almost every wall in spikes, right? Honestly, I was also annoyed by the Prime limitations on the spiderball, but I think it would be better than the alternative.

Granted, it may be possible to make it work. Perhaps a better example would be the space jump; I KNOW they could have done that better. If you can find away to make the space jump work in 3d, kudos to you. However, I wouldn't condemn the entire Prime trilogy just because a couple of Samus' upgrades aren't as powerful. That's a really petty reason to denounce something.

yes I ackknowledge the suit looks very different from metroid 1 compared to 2 and 3.. this should tell you i had something planned to deal with this fact... as it was never said "why her suit looked different" and it wouldn't harm the story to explain it

Oh, so now your fan theories are legit, but Nintendo's work isn't? If you are making up your own reasons for suit appearance changes, then YOU ARE CHANGING YOKOI'S PLOTLINE. You are inserting your own ideas into the game and making it different. Double standard much?

varia suit may not have changed samus in anything but color in the original game but I had something planed to explain that as well.. (her original chozo suit didn't have the capability to use varia suit to it's full extent cause the suit was out of date compared to the item)

You complain about Prime's character models, and yet you're willing to force THIS explanation into the story? Dude, the old varia suit was the way it was because of technical limitations. NES graphics were just that shitty, and that was the only way to make the suit change noticeable. Are you really that nitpicky?

yes very rare do developers do such, especially now-a-days. in the 80's-90's it was hardly heard of. now it's become a cool trend in the game developer community.. by many it's considdered "putting their own artistic touch on it..."

You mean like making up your own reason for the varia suit to change between games? That's putting your own artistic touch on it.

I can jump with 3ft beneath me...and I bet theres someone out there who can do it in a full suit of armor... and that is without the power boosts that samus's suit supplies.. (which is supposed to allow her to be light and graceful in the air)

You know what? I challenge you to pull off the jumps that Samus did in Metroid Prime. Without the space jump; I mean the ones right at the beginning. Go on, do it. Post vids.

there are other ways to hinder the "space jump" item as well (like acidic atmosphere that makes you stop spining thus no more jumping..). but usually when you get space jump you are near the end of the game anyways and it's expected that you have it.. (so by then you will be using it to access areas)

Giving you overpowered abilities and only letting you use them in a few situations? That's called shitty game design, my friend. I would much rather have weaker abilities that are always useable. That's also more in the spirit of metroid; being prevented from using the space jump by weird atmosphere in almost every spot where you'd want to use it is just the antithesis of fun.

again it all came down to how much intiative the team felt like taking on the project.. both with space jump and highjump.. they decided not to put an invisible roof over the top and so, no spacejump... until metroid prime2 that is.. when they included it in screwatack.. but it only allowed you like 11 jumps at best.. and you couldn't change the direction once you started, again becuase they didn't want to take initiative to put up anti space jump barriers where they didn't want you jumping to..

Because that would be lame, and would snap you out of the immersing experience.

she's not as quick cause that would be disorienting in 1st person, boostball ( thats third person anyways..) side boosting.. never dealt with that item but I think I understand it makes her jump to the side quicker right? ok.. well why make an Item jusy to make up for lost abbillities?.. oh and her high jumping didn't help me dodge much in fact I kept getting plastered by bosses no matter how I jumped or rolled to the side.. in short inoreder for an object as big as samus to dodge anything thats shot at her she needs to be able to move ALOT. hence the 15-20+ft max high jump boots...

Side boost...what the hell are you talking about? There's no item like that in Prime! Samus can quickly jump sideways and strafe around enemies from the very beginning.

but the old games weren't first person! there were FPS's on the NES and SNES, but they stunk! at least compared to modern ones... metroid can work in 3rd person, it was technically in 3rd person (being a side scroller) cause you weren't seeing through the eyes of the character.. except on the odd occasion (x-ray-scope) and that was still managed in 3rd person..

The old games weren't 3d either. If you're going to go from 2d to 3d, switching perspectives isn't so big of a deal by comparison.

so if it works in 3rd person... why change it? why step aside from what you know both works and keeps the gameplay as much like the old series as best?

So, if it works best in 2d...why change it?

MP is a departure from the original gameplay.. you said so your self.. the "feel" of the metroid series was best in the 2D side scrollers (cause that is "what" the feel of the metroid series is), and honestly MP gives me like 20% of that "feel"..

And your gameplay, as you've described it so far, is going to depart just as heavily from the original sidescroll action. If you're changing from 2d to 3d, you're changing the way the game plays. No ifs or buts about it. If you really want to make a game exactly like the old ones, stick to 2d. Its much easier to do anyway.

agiain what I was talking about has nothing to do with realistic/cartoony, it has to do with general shape and color, granted there have been some small changes from M1 to M3 in appearence, but said changes were very small. you mention kraid and ridley's differences in looks most specifically, and I agree, did you know I had a way to explain this in my game as well? you probably didn't cause I never told you... so whats the explanation? (mother brain created kraid and ridley, and after they failed in metroid 1, she redesinged them to make up for thier weaknesses (mobility, size, weak points ETC.)that way she would count on them to better protect her in the future.. she would alos redesign herself moments before being destroyed (I had it all planned out, it would show cut scenes showing a little bit of mother brain's brain and a monitor in torion for ridley and kraid, where as for her self you would be able to see the monitor as you fight her..

Oh for the love of...

You rationalize these changes away with your own fan theories, but you piss and moan about it when anyone else does it? How the hell is this any different from Retro's changes to the space pirates' appearance? Genetic engineering and phazon (both of which the pirates in Prime used heavily) explain the changes they made, just as your elaborate fan theory explains the changes that the original metroid team made. How are you any better than Retro?

in prime alot of enemies were deemed not FPS worthy (not they were "3D worthy" cause what ever workds in 2D can work in some extent in 3D, maybe with a little barely noticable change of adding programming for the extra axis)

As well as the fact that...oh, I don't know...it was set on a different planet with totally different fauna? You know how the enemies on Zebes and SR388 are different from each other? The enemies in Prime are the same way.

some other changes metroids, they made them smaller and very oddly shaped. honestly they looked like mochtroids... they also messed up what it takes to defeat a metroid (you shouldn't be able to do so with beam EVER) ice beam then 5 missiles, but no it's only one missile in MP..

While I agree that the metroids should have been bigger and harder to kill in Prime, you have to take into account that missiles worked a bit differently in Prime. In the 2d games, missiles are exactly like normal shots, except they do more damage. In a 3d environment, they gave the missiles a tracking feature to make them hit often enough to be worth using, and slowed them down a bit to keep it balanced. While there probably was a better way of doing it, the solution they used worked well enough.

Anyway, I agree that the metroids should have taken more to kill. But really, the number of missiles that it takes to kill a certain enemy is a very trivial detail.

metroid abbilities they made seperate metroid species to say that not all metroids can split... and not all can morph another retcon.. (making metroid2 impossible cause the motriods on SR388 both split under certain conditions and morph under others..)

Wrong. All the metroids you encounter in the Prime trilogy were mutants, altered by phazon exposure. They had a totally different life cycle from normal metroids, and it SAID SO IN THE GAME LORE. Reread the scans in Prime.

they alos made a "hunter metroid" and called it the next step in metroid evolution (morhping) another retcon..

The next step in PHAZON METROID evolution. See previous point.

thats metroids, how about some others, they intended to use side hoppers but realized they would be disorienting to a 1st person view if you were locked onto them (cause they would jump over you head and spin you around...) in 3rd person this wouldn't be a problem.. so they left it as a "xenotropic life-form" making a door shake only int he very begining of the game.. i would note they fixed that in metroid prime 2 in the multiplayer session, you'll note one of the multiplayrer boards has a single sidehopper.. it from the quick glimpse I got the only thing I could recognise was it was jumping off the cieling.. (it looked very different)

There's also the little fact that sidehoppers are native to Zebes, and that none of the Prime games took place on Zebes. The easter egg in Prime was just that; an easter egg. I would have been annoyed if there were sidehoppers in Prime, because those are an iconic Zebesian monster.

theres more on creatures, skree's known as skriek bats in MP, attacked more like "wavers" in MP, and thier looks were off, no this wasn't due to changes that had to be made to make it 3D again it was becasue they didn't fit in FPS properly the way they were (cause samus would have to be able to shoot directly up)...

Shriekbats are not skrees. They might be similar, but they are different creatures. Note that skrees burrow into the ground after descending, whereas shriekbats explode.

OH WAIT! In original metroid, the skrees DID explode. In Super, they burrowed into the soil and shot rocks in all directions as they dug. Inconsistency! Inconsistency!

geemers and space pirates; you noted them they act different and are defeated differently.. and they lookd differently, the "zoomer" looked more like a proper geemer (the color was like super metroid's geemersas well..) also you'll note in prime they only had the space pirate zebsians and called a space pirate zebsian with a jet pack a flying pirate.. in super metroid there were two breeds of space pirates both from zebes, the space pirate zebsian (walking), and space pirate ki-hunter (flying) (my own opinion; I always thought of them as male and female of the same species, but they were definately of the same specias.. and there was only one space pirate species mentioned..)

Male and female of the same species? No, you're wrong. It says IN THE SUPER METROID MANUAL that the Kihunters are a seperate species from a different planet who are allied with the space pirates. You are raping Yokoi's plot.

you aren't understandiong how I meant that.. in metroid you did shoot/bomb most everything, you are right1 but "how" you did was different, with the exception of the metal gates in super metorid there weren't many "shoot "this" to activate "this"" scenarios, prime was littered with then, if it wasn't scanning it to open it it was shooting a button..

Well, endlessly shooting holes in walls would just get boring in 3D. Adding puzzles into the gameplay makes it more interesting, and uses the potential of a 3d world more fully.

the game started off with a blocked tunnel you had to use a charge beam shot to get rid of the debris, but afterwards we hardly saw such things.. they could do it, but decided that it would be easier not to.. that and it would be hard to find certain secrets because there might not even be a crack to let you know there was a secret, the only way to see it was see into the scenery , yes again as I was saying before that means like my concept picture where ytou can see whats in the ground/wall cieling around samus.. not just the outside of it..

What the...Prime was FULL of hidden items that you had to bomb, shoot, and tear at the environment to get at. The only difference is that the puzzles to get them were a little more complicated than the 2d ones, because a 3d game is more complicated in general.

um.. good try! but zebes had a chozo city once too, multiple cities (underground) and when the space pirates did go there they uprooted what ever the chozo's used and replaced them with there own system.. so... one more question on this not how do you explain the space pirates own elevators in the ship and in phazon mines? wouldn't they just make them like thier own elevators? and if they wanted to lift more pirates at once allong with cargo wouldn't they just use a really big energy platform? I eman they were above using non-energy elevators...

Or maybe not all elevators are the same, different buildings have different looking elevators, and not every elevator on every planet in the galaxy is the exact same size. Could that be possible?

ok you aren't seeing the implications behind green, blonde, brunette and purple hair are you? (mind you this is just an educated guess but); her hair color chages with her mood and/or situation, so the green hair in metroid game-play could be atributed to cretain feelings samus was having about the mission, and naturally when it was over she was "calm" and her hair color went back to normal (and yes that was supposed to be blonde it just looked like brown hair cause they tried to add shadowing to it)

If you can say that, then I can say that her face and suit also change depending on her mood. What's the difference?

off of her hair and onto facial looks, in the super metroid artwork we did see samus's face, but it was hardly accomodating to the in-game faces that we had come to lsee so far, it looked nothing like them... also in super metroid in the game we did see samus's face. though I will note the face I came up with for my model is very similar to metroid zero mission's samus but not exactly.. so yeah I'd say both our samuses are close.. where as prime's initial one wasn't close to anything but samus in her 40's.. and then the next MP one doesn't look like MZM samus at all but more like metroid2's samus face..

So basically; the old art is allowed to be inconsistent, but the new art isn't.

now as per the rest of that argument... is the feeling of prime the feeling of metroid EXACTLY? no it's the feeling of prime... did you get a feeling of seclusion on an alien planet with the 2D games? yes you did otherwise you wouldn't like metroid you'd only like prime. now about this 1st person view.. I will say this, it's one way to look at it, but it's not "the" way it "was" looked at.. do you understand that... in order to recreate the feeling of metroid you have to recreate it exactly like the old one were created, but they don't have to be 2D or side scrollers. all you do is add in the extra axis and controlls to deal with the extra axis and camera controls... done!, finished!, metroid atmosphere recreated in a fully 3D game!..

No. You've changed it by adding a 3d axis. Its not the same game. Its not the same atmosphere. Its different. Just as different as making it first person.

and one final question; do you like halo?

How did I know this was coming?

if yes; play halo to get your " on an alien planet is much better captured (in my opinion) by the 1st person viewpoint and the darker" and keep it out of interfereing with the old style of metroid..

So, because Halo is first person, Metroid isn't allowed to be?

metroid=metroid, halo=halo, metroid prime= metroid+halo... please donot mix these two! play halo seperately, then when the situation calls for some metroid; play metroid..

Metroid Prime and Halo are nothing alike. Completely different type of game. Metroid Prime is an exploration game where you find hidden items, unlock new areas of the map, and backtrack endlessly, defeating bosses on the way. Halo is a linear, action-oriented shooter where you play through multiple levels, kill hundreds of aliens, and move from one end of the map to the other. They look nothing alike, they play nothing alike, and aside from being first person (and there are a LOT of different first person games) they ARE nothing alike.

but again the main point of my rant is equality, you had your FPS view metroid in 3D, so what about people like me? we should have a chace at our 3rd person metroid in 3D no not a side scroller!!! it disgusts me that we have the capability to produce 3D games and nintendo refuses to produce anything like the old days in 3D (without it being a sidescroller)!

People like you, huh? Who besides yourself do you claim to speak for? I've talked to a lot of metroid fans, and never once have I stumbled on anyone with these views.

maybe we should do what they should have done all along! produce both at once! two seperate game series, one that follows the way it used to play and the way every thing was set-up, and one thats MP oriented.. calling them seperate dimentions.. each would be completely realistic, just one would have everything looking 90% like metroid or more, and the other would be your FPS fix of the series..

Or maybe just let the series evolve naturally, like all series tend to do?

if you still argue with this than there is no hope for you...

Oh accursed fate!

metroid wise, and all of us orginal series fans will labelled you as "metroid prime fans" and you wont be considdered official metroid fans. oh and I'd suggest calling your site "the metroid prime database" cause no doubt the courts will grant someone talking about the original series the rights the name "the metroid database" or you could forego that and split your site into two seperate databases, "Metroid Prime" and "original series", and/or add a third for smash brothers stuff as well.

.

Where is this mysterious army of supporters you claim to have?

however thats only if you still feel that people who want my style of metroid don't deserve our equality.. everyone desevers equality...

You vs. thousands of Metroid fans. Sorry, those two groups are not equal. By the way, are you positive that you aren't a troll?

[Lazarius]

Win. Fucking epic Win.

You sir, are less a man, than a God.

[sharonlover]

I'm only gonna forwarn you that if you continue trying to argue a point that is moot to everyone but you, you're are gonna become a frustrated little man. It seems that everyone who has responded to your post enjoy or at least respect Metroid Prime enough to consider it a Metroid game; however, you have claimed followers? Please where are these people that follow your ideas? I still say you have done nothing but take your own crazy fan theories and twisted Metroid to your liking and the way YOU would want it to be. I'm not gonna sit here and argue about the inconsistencies between game and game because every one of them has it.

I think you should just back out before people start ignoring you. Find something else to talk about. If I didn't have to mod a thread, I wouldn't be reading these myself and would already pass up your posts. My personal opinion, your slightly off your rocker. But again, good luck with your endeavor to change the Metroid world.

[Brain Boy]

You, sir, are a hype-monger. And you picked the wrong place to hype. Seems all you've managed to do is make enemies (or at least disrespectors) out of everyone you've tried to advertise to.

I'd get out while the getting's good, if I were you.

[Doftimus]

My view (with the help of a friend's wording)

Dude....your off your rocker

[Quadraxis]

This is starting to look way too much like GameFaqs.

[Infinity's End]

just a word of forewarning, josh. this is the wrong community to fuck with. We ARE the Metroid community. (Well, us and possibly the Metroid2002 and the Metroid Metal Forums) So if you want to troll here, it's only going to bite you in the ass. Unlike you, we (well most of us) LIKE Prime, so you're wasting your time to convince us otherwise.

[ZEBESIAN_SPACE_PIRATE]

I'm sorry, I didn't hear a word you said because of all the shit pouring from your mouth, Joshex.

And to Sylux: Rockin rebuttal

[joshex]

I was awestruck that you didn't say anything about equality... I mean for the past two posts i've made I mentioned that was my main argument...

equality, you had yours, now let us have ours. (you might even like ours)

and no one answered the question of whether they like halo or not..

opinion, I did list some of my opinions, but you'll havce to realize what do they do to the series? do they retcon something that was previously stated in the series? no, they never mentioned why samus's suit was way different in metroid 1 (well they did in zero mission) and I was merely using that, I called it one of the good ideas they used. cause it didn't retcon anything.. (except it did create an extra area of zebes..)

I'm going to be very short with this, I'm only telling you why my opinion isn't "so" wrong.. which I have stated above, it doesn't retcon the series in any way. it merely adds new information just to help it's own original story fill it's "gaps"..EX of gaps; why does ridley look different, why does samus look different, why does samus's hair color change... ETC.. to answer these questions with a reasonable asumption is not to retcon or harm the series...

3D

my friends, I am the one using a 3D modeling suite here, you'd think I'd know what the 3D atmosphere is capable of now.

and so heres the skinny of it; instead of arguing further with both of us spouting only what we know and sticking to what we understand, allow me to show you what I understand about the 3D atmosphere..

CHALLENGE;

you mentioned the spikes and the acidic atmosphere being not a proper way to control spiderball and space jump abbilities... Ok then scince both are present in 2D in metroid 2, give me a sceen shot of a place you think would be impossible to recreate in 3D and still be legible, and get this I will make it in 3D... (note it will be very basic and not very detailed as I will be pretty much just be making a few textures and slapping them onto blocks to show how it would be set-up.. not necesarily how the graphics would look (this presentation will be VERY crummy compared to the graphic intended in my game..)

any more questions about things you feel would change the atmosphere when translated into 3D (by adding the extra axis) I will make those in 3D as well to show you they dont change anything but an extra axis, which means if it did effect anything in the gamew, it would effect the game about 30% (at max) leaving it 60% exactly like metroid, where as prime is like 30% metroid, 60% FPS and 10% zelda ...

Edit (why those specific percents); X=33.33333%,Y=33.33333%, Z=33.33333%, in all 3Dgames the extra axis (by your logic) makes it at least a 3rd different from the original series.., but theres more to it that axies; looks and interaction/controls; if those differ expect to take another 20-30% off of it's metroid-ness... which would leave prime around 30% metroid.

making up the missing percent; the puzzels being zelda style I'd call that 10%(metroids style of puzzels gave it's some of it's metroid-ness), and the controlls and interaction being set up for an FPS and differing greatly from it's 2D counterparts, I'd call that 30%, (the controls and the interaction were a big part of what was metroid) so the tally is 100-33.33333-10-30=26.66667% metroid, I'd a metroid game thats a whole lot more metroidy than that.. so what would my game be like if I kept the controls and interaction the same and made metroid style puzzels? 100-33.33333=66.66667% metroid, thats a bit better wouldn't you say?

what do I think of your story, I don't like it, again why not produce both?, why force people to play a metroid game in a perspective they don't like? why not make two sepereate games one in FPS and one in 3rd person..?

EDIT; it wouldn't be a good idea to even make an adventurewhere half a planet was presented in FPS , and the other in 3rd person... cause the controlls for both would be radically different, I mean "they" (nintendo) would make the 3rd person controlls fit the 3rd person atmosphere and the first person controls would be like prime's, so again two seperate controlls, where as in my game i was going to give the FPS view the same 3rd person controlls as the rest of the game...(disorienting or not, cause i perfer the 3rd person perspective of it (as showing in the sidscrollers but adding the extra axis)

I think I'll wrap it up there...

[mental]

Yes, more code, less talk, please.

[joshex]

Yes, more code, less talk, please.

exactly tell me what you think wont work and and I'll work it out.. and present it in 3D.

[mental]

exactly tell me what you think wont work and and I'll work it out.. and present it in 3D.

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is the room with the "spiked room + helping torizo" puzzle (and the secondary shinespark puzzle to get the reserve tank) immediately prior to the room with the Gravity Suit in Super Metroid. That might be a little unfairly ambitious, but it does capture in a single room many of the gameplay and level design elements in "classic Metroid" which don't translate well to 3D.